can i just...

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can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:44 am

the TTB says I must poison my ethanol to render it undrinkable. was wondering if I could just add the fores back to "poison" it. its basically nail polish remover anyway. them maybe "some" could be re-run to remove them. thus a finished product. ideas? suggestions?
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Re: can i just...

Postby bearriver » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:09 am

Below is the link to the laws and regulations the tbb has put in place regarding denatured alcohol. The information that you are looking for will be in there.

http://www.ttb.gov/industrial/sda_regs_laws.shtml

Edit: After skimming through the list of denaturants authorized for denatured spirits, I see that your idea doesn't fly. You will have to follow one of the specific formulas outlined there exactly to be legal.

Before starting a venture like this, it is important to read all of the information the TBB has made available to you. :ewink:

Here is the cheapest formula to date. It should be the way you go unless it doesn't work with your application.

§21.32 Formula No. 1.

(a) Formula. To every 100 gallons of alcohol add:

Four gallons of methyl alcohol and either 1⁄8 avoirdupois ounce of denatonium benzoate, N.F.; 1 gallon of methyl isobutyl ketone; 1 gallon of mixed isomers of nitropropane; or 1 gallon of methyl n- butyl ketone.

(b) Authorized uses. (1) As a solvent:

011. Cellulose coatings.

012. Synthetic resin coatings.

013. Shellac coatings.

014. Other natural resin coatings.

016. Other coatings.

021. Cellulose plastics.

022. Non-cellulose plastics, including resins.

031. Photographic film and emulsions.

032. Transparent sheeting.

033. Explosives.

034. Cellulose intermediates and industrial collodions.

035. Soldering flux.

036. Adhesives and binders.

041. Proprietary solvents.

042. Solvents and thinners (other than proprietary solvents or special industrial solvents).

043. Solvents, special (restricted sale).

051. Polishes.

052. Inks (not including meat branding inks).

053. Stains (wood, etc.).

141. Shampoos.

142. Soap and bath preparations.

311. Cellulose compounds (dehydration).

312. Sodium hydrosulfite (dehydration).

315. Other dehydration products.

320. Petroleum products.

331. Processing pectin.

332. Processing other food products.

341. Processing crude drugs.

342. Processing glandular products, vitamins, hormones, and yeasts.

343. Processing antibiotics and vaccines.

344. Processing medicinal chemicals (including alkaloids).

345. Processing blood and blood products.

349. Miscellaneous drug processing (including manufacture of pills).

351. Processing dyes and intermediates.

352. Processing perfume materials and fixatives.

353. Processing photographic chemicals.

354. Processing rosin.

355. Processing rubber (latex).

358. Processing other chemicals.

359. Processing miscellaneous products.

410. Disinfectants, insecticides, fungicides, and other biocides.

420. Embalming fluids and related products.

430. Sterilizing and preserving solutions.

440. Industrial detergents and soaps.

450. Cleaning solutions (including household detergents).

481. Photoengraving and rotogravure dyes and solutions.

482. Other dye solutions.

485. Miscellaneous solutions (including duplicating fluids).

(2) As a raw material:

521. Ethyl acetate.

522. Ethyl chloride.

523. Other ethyl esters.

530. Ethylamines.

540. Dyes and intermediates.

551. Acetaldehyde.

552. Other aldehydes.

561. Ethyl ether.

562. Other ethers.

571. Ethylene dibromide.

572. Ethylene gas.

573. Xanthates.

574. Fulminate of mercury and other detonators.

575. Drugs and medicinal chemicals.

579. Other chemicals.

(3) As a fuel:

611. Automobile and supplementary fuels.

612. Airplane and supplementary fuels.

613. Rocket and jet fuels.

620. Proprietary heating fuels.

630. Other fuel uses.

(4) As a fluid:

710. Scientific instruments.

720. Brake fluids.

730. Cutting oil.

740. Refrigerating uses.

750. Other fluid uses.

760. Proprietary anti-freeze.

(5) Miscellaneous uses:

812. Product development and pilot plant uses (own use only).

900. Specialized uses (unclassified).

[T.D. ATF-133, 48 FR 24673, June 2, 1983, as amended by T.D. ATF-199, 50 FR 9183, Mar. 6, 1985; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001]
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:32 am

WOW! talk about eyeball bleed! that's a LOT of info! was just wondering if using its own poison would work. thought it might float...then again, a turd floats too! im gonna read all the info you so kindly sent. thanks to all of you.
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Re: can i just...

Postby woodshed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:58 am

Without a federal permit to produce ethanol nothing the TTB says has any relevance to what you are doing. Without the permit you are breaking the law no matter how you poison your spirits.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:09 am

WOW! that was pretty sharp, shed! I plan to get a permit. just interested in perfecting my recipes. lots of variables. grains, fruits,water etc. ease up man, im gonna go full blown legal...thanks for the post tho. good looking out.
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Re: can i just...

Postby woodshed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:13 am

Ease up? I am simply stating the truth. And not one to sugar coat.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:27 am

thanks for looking out man...much love. lifes too short to hate...my motto is..."knowledge is power"...words to live by.
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Re: can i just...

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:35 am

I'm cornfused by the whole thing, BC, are you looking to make tasty spirits, or fuel? If it's about poisoning good shine to sorta comply, then I agree with Woodshed, it's like being sorta pregnant.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:04 pm

spirits of course. fuel permit is free. distill is about 1800 beans a year + + +. if I can make top line fuel, I can make...well...you know. gotta crawl before you can walk. brew-test-poison-then free gas. hell, im gonna GIVE it away! just nailing down my tried and true blend before I bend over and PAY for the right to make it. its all good. I have pretty thick skin. maybe shed is afraid ill take some of his market? theres enough room for all of us.
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Re: can i just...

Postby woodshed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:19 pm

The only things I fear are arrogance and ignorance.
Competition drives me.
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Re: can i just...

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:22 pm

Big Cypress wrote: theres enough room for all of us.

Lots of room, for sure! No offense, just wasn't understanding your plan. Good luck with your endeavors. :thumbup:
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:27 pm

MR.Shed. were on the same page. hope to meet you at a tasting when im up and running. best of luck to both of us.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Bayou-Ruler » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:29 pm

Big Cypress, just be sure you follow the letter of the law once you are permitted. One thing for sure if you get caught in violation once you are permitted the chances you you receiving a break or leniency are very slim.
Last edited by Bayou-Ruler on Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:35 pm

MR. BAYOU...were neighbors.
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Re: can i just...

Postby woodshed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:43 pm

Big Cypress wrote:MR.Shed. were on the same page. hope to meet you at a tasting when im up and running. best of luck to both of us.

Indeed.
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Re: can i just...

Postby S-Cackalacky » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:18 pm

If you have a permit and making fuel ethanol, it's my understanding that you don't need to denature it if stays on your property for your own use.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:07 pm

yeah, that's how it reads. but do you think they doubt you wont draw some for "tasting"? they may be dumb but they aint stupid. they know you wont give away sipping juice for fuel. thanks for the input tho. total respect for all of you. I...like you want to be an outlaw but in reality I cant..(wink) take the chance.
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Re: can i just...

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:20 pm

Big Cypress wrote:(wink)

:wink:
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Re: can i just...

Postby bearriver » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:11 pm

Quick 2 rather blunt questions... How much capital are you prepared to invest, and are you able to spend years in the red before seeing any black?

As Rad says this isn't what you want to hear but perhaps what you need to hear...

While I do not doubt your ambition, you clearly do not know enough about distillation to even begin thinking about a career choice based off of it. You might not end up even liking it after figuring out how it all works. I am not the only one who has gleaned from your posts thus far that you are nowhere near ready to even begin thinking about it. That is, if real world success means anything to you. Assuming you have a gigantic stack of cash to invest would only be a small part of the what will be required to start a successful distillery.

My advice, spend >2 years getting the basics down on a hobby level. Go with tried and true recipes for a year then develop a recipe or two of your own over the next year. Focus on research and educating yourself, because your ambition will only go so far. ADI Forums is an excellent resource built from people that are actually working in the industry like Woodshed... Also, forget the fruitless fuel permit idea. That would only seek to detract from your important goals. I bet $10 Shed never got a fuel permit and never will.

The only way this advice won't apply to you is if you pay a well established consultation firm to hold your hand in building the business and product. Consultation fees for start-up distilleries are a very expensive service, often costing more than a respectable home would.
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Re: can i just...

Postby Big Cypress » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:25 pm

well that's a very nice post. I respect your input. that said, a bit about me. im a 60 yo redneck who has brewed off and on for 45 plus years. I learned from long dead folks. I will stand my product against anyone. im testing the waters on this site. I wont insult anyone so no need to call me out. just looking at new methods. thank you all for treating me fair.call me anytime. oh, and yes, I CAN afford to go legal. just don't know how much time I have left....peace to all.
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Re: can i just...

Postby rad14701 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:25 am

Have you done enough research to know how much work making fuel alcohol will entail...??? How much raw resources you will need...??? How much of your personal time and effort...??? How much less MPG fuel ethanol has compared to gasoline...??? And the list goes on... There's good reason why very few people who envision producing their own fuel never do...

Big Cypress wrote:yeah, that's how it reads. but do you think they doubt you wont draw some for "tasting"? they may be dumb but they aint stupid. they know you wont give away sipping juice for fuel. thanks for the input tho. total respect for all of you. I...like you want to be an outlaw but in reality I cant..(wink) take the chance.

Not even sure why you posted that because you ARE taking the chance by doing anything before being properly permitted... Johnny Law doesn't give a shit whether you were planning on getting a fuel permit, a pistol permit, or any other permit for that matter, if you doing something without that required permit... Stop bullshitting us and, especially, yourself... You're either 100% legit by doing things in the proper order, or you're breaking the law - plain and simple... The TTB expects to have an "in good faith" agreement with you to not drink your fuel because that would be illegal, which is why you don't need to denature fuel alcohol stored and used on your permitted property... Not to mention the fact that they can throw your ass in jail if they discover otherwise... If the TTB has even an inkling that you might drink some of your fuel they wouldn't grant you a permit...

And, for the record, it will also be illegal to "give away" your fuel as you will learn as you delve deeper into this venture... It's for your use only and you need to keep accurate records...

Get your ducks in a row and work up a written plan before proceeding...
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