The simplest steam setup?

Steam powered cooking and distillation devices.

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Demy
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:07 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:56 am
Here is a legendary pair of stills that illustrates the vapor supply piping entering each thumper from the side/bottom/exterior.

20200824_201009.jpg
What a show! I notice that the pipes start wide and then shrink (conical) is this to increase the speed of the vapor and / or carry more flavor?

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:12 am

That is definitely a byproduct. But it's much simpler than that. The taper is an elegant, practical way to transition from large to small.
By that I mean that the initial diameter on the primary wouldn't really fit well at the connection point on the thumper.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:45 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:12 am
That is definitely a byproduct. But it's much simpler than that. The taper is an elegant, practical way to transition from large to small.
By that I mean that the initial diameter on the primary wouldn't really fit well at the connection point on the thumper.
It seems right to me. Speaking of steam inlet in the thumper, for a small boiler (about 20 liters loaded) a 1/2 inlet pipe could go? I already have the tap of that size.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:10 am

1/2" is plenty
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:33 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:10 am
1/2" is plenty
thank you very much, I was reading 1 "in size and that put me off a little ....

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:53 am

A 1" steam line is capable of feeding a still that far (far,far,far) exceeds the heat requirement of a hobby sized rig.
Particularly a live steam feed because heat transfer with live steam is extremely efficient.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:07 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:53 am
A 1" steam line is capable of feeding a still that far (far,far,far) exceeds the heat requirement of a hobby sized rig.
Particularly a live steam feed because heat transfer with live steam is extremely efficient.
Great information, thank you very much. In your opinion, what would be the minimum diameter for a small boiler (always 20L)? Maybe I am wrong but in my mind I think that a smaller diameter gives an acceleration to the vapor because it increases the pressure of the tube (and this would help the bubbling) but maybe I am wrong. Obviously keep the clogging factor in mind, so you have to find a compromise.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Twisted Brick » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:15 am

.
The answers to all your questions (and more) are folded into 'thumper threads' here on HD. Other good sources of info are the personal thumper threads with pics that show what others are running and their hands-on assessments.

Here are a number of threads that will hopefully shorten your learning curve.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37610&start=30

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6084&start=160

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6084&start=160

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32180

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 16&t=39681

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:36 am

Twisted Brick wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:15 am
.
The answers to all your questions (and more) are folded into 'thumper threads' here on HD. Other good sources of info are the personal thumper threads with pics that show what others are running and their hands-on assessments.

Here are a number of threads that will hopefully shorten your learning curve.

Thanks, some I have read them, I asked the questions because they are a bit dated posts and in the meantime there may be other opinions / developments.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:43 am

I don't know why you want to add material handling time to the operation.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:47 am

Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:53 am

Yes a smaller steam feed line does accelerate steam vapor speed as well as help to more adequately maintain pressure in the genny. But a control valve can do that too.
Remember that pressure = heat.
Boiling water at 1 bar (15 psi) can produce a steam temp of nearly 250 degrees. I can't recall what 3 psi is capable of? I don't have that committed to memory.
But there are charts all over the net.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:58 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:47 am
Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?
My research starts from the fact that fruit washes with all the pulp are thick, as well as pomace for grappa. I usually use a basket inside the boiler that holds the solids. Then I saw the Steam option and was considering this option on a very small scale, hence the benefits / ease of updating my current system. I thought it was clear, I also made some drawings at the beginning of the post just to make it clearer.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:59 am

2 psi=218.5 F for example.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:02 am

Demy wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:58 am
LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:47 am
Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?
My research starts from the fact that fruit washes with all the pulp are thick, as well as pomace for grappa. I usually use a basket inside the boiler that holds the solids. Then I saw the Steam option and was considering this option on a very small scale, hence the benefits / ease of updating my current system. I thought it was clear, I also made some drawings at the beginning of the post just to make it clearer.

Sure.
But the smaller feed for live steam is not preferable on a thumper.
It's two different philosophies for mass transfer.

Guess I'm the one that's all over the place?
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:08 am

Guess I'm the one that's all over the place?
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this part ... my language doesn't help me!

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:21 am

Lol sorry. I was implying that I am easily confused and very frequently forget where I park my car.

I guess I wasn't clear on weather or not your steam source is going to be water or an alcohol mixture in your primary kettle?

Small pipe is fine for heat delivery on this case. But not optimal for mass transfer of your alcohol into the thumper and out to the product condenser.

If you have a rigid screen in your thumper that can elevate above your thumper liquid and spread your pumice out so that it can be uniformly exposed to rising vapor you should be able to do a good job of flashing all of the alcohol (and potential flavor) out of the skins
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Swedish Pride » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:55 am

So 1/2" is ok if you're only interested to use it as a steam generator.
For alcohol steam what do you recommend 1" or bigger?
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:22 am

Swedish Pride wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:55 am
So 1/2" is ok if you're only interested to use it as a steam generator.
For alcohol steam what do you recommend 1" or bigger?
Staying with more traditional sizes is probably best. 1.5" (40 mm) to 2" (50 mm) seems to work really well for most of us at the hobby scale. We do see some folks using 3/4" but they are the ones usually looking to upgrade as soon as they get their red wings.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:37 am

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:21 am
Lol sorry. I was implying that I am easily confused and very frequently forget where I park my car.

I guess I wasn't clear on weather or not your steam source is going to be water or an alcohol mixture in your primary kettle?

Small pipe is fine for heat delivery on this case. But not optimal for mass transfer of your alcohol into the thumper and out to the product condenser.

If you have a rigid screen in your thumper that can elevate above your thumper liquid and spread your pumice out so that it can be uniformly exposed to rising vapor you should be able to do a good job of flashing all of the alcohol (and potential flavor) out of the skins
Yes, I meant the tube that carries the steam from the kettle (filled with water only) to the thumper (all the way down to the thumper). Thanks a lot, it's a nice conversation. I believe that many can benefit from it.
Last edited by Demy on Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Swedish Pride » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:39 am

Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry :thumbup:
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:41 am

Swedish Pride wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:39 am
Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry :thumbup:
In fact, this thing has me confused, I've always read about large pipes (1 inch minimum). A sigh for me.

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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:16 pm

Swedish Pride wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:39 am
Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry :thumbup:

Well it doesn't have to. It just depends on the intended goal really. How versatile you want the rig to be.

A dedicated steam genny (at the hobby scale) doesn't need a very large pipe to transfer heat associated with live steam injection.

19 mm pipe on my steam genny can provide enough steam heat to process 40 gallons of beer an hour on the continuous feed. Of course part of that equation is how many BTUs is heating the water in the genny.
Will be experimenting soon with a larger diameter column to see if that size can feed (and keep up) with the larger column.
I can't do the math and my friend can't get his ASPEN program running after his computer died so practical application is what it'll take to find out I suppose.
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:32 pm

This from the internet:
Two principal factors determine pipe sizing in a steam system: 1. The initial pressure at the boiler and the allowable pressure drop of the total system. The total pressure drop in the system should not exceed 20% of the total maximum pressure at the boiler. Pressure drops are loss of energy
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by LWTCS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:39 pm

Here is a chart that talks about sizing:
20200926_163843.jpg
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Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:59 pm

LWTCS wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:32 pm
This from the internet:
Two principal factors determine pipe sizing in a steam system: 1. The initial pressure at the boiler and the allowable pressure drop of the total system. The total pressure drop in the system should not exceed 20% of the total maximum pressure at the boiler. Pressure drops are loss of energy
Does this make sense. I guess you have to maintain a certain pressure to feed the thumper steadily without dropping.

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