The simplest steam setup?

[Demy]

Here is a legendary pair of stills that illustrates the vapor supply piping entering each thumper from the side/bottom/exterior.

20200824_201009.jpg

What a show! I notice that the pipes start wide and then shrink (conical) is this to increase the speed of the vapor and / or carry more flavor?

[LWTCS]

That is definitely a byproduct. But it's much simpler than that. The taper is an elegant, practical way to transition from large to small.
By that I mean that the initial diameter on the primary wouldn't really fit well at the connection point on the thumper.

[Demy]

That is definitely a byproduct. But it's much simpler than that. The taper is an elegant, practical way to transition from large to small.
By that I mean that the initial diameter on the primary wouldn't really fit well at the connection point on the thumper.

It seems right to me. Speaking of steam inlet in the thumper, for a small boiler (about 20 liters loaded) a 1/2 inlet pipe could go? I already have the tap of that size.

[LWTCS]

1/2" is plenty

[Demy]

1/2" is plenty

thank you very much, I was reading 1 "in size and that put me off a little ....

[LWTCS]

A 1" steam line is capable of feeding a still that far (far,far,far) exceeds the heat requirement of a hobby sized rig.
Particularly a live steam feed because heat transfer with live steam is extremely efficient.

[Demy]

A 1" steam line is capable of feeding a still that far (far,far,far) exceeds the heat requirement of a hobby sized rig.
Particularly a live steam feed because heat transfer with live steam is extremely efficient.

Great information, thank you very much. In your opinion, what would be the minimum diameter for a small boiler (always 20L)? Maybe I am wrong but in my mind I think that a smaller diameter gives an acceleration to the vapor because it increases the pressure of the tube (and this would help the bubbling) but maybe I am wrong. Obviously keep the clogging factor in mind, so you have to find a compromise.

[Twisted Brick]

.
The answers to all your questions (and more) are folded into 'thumper threads' here on HD. Other good sources of info are the personal thumper threads with pics that show what others are running and their hands-on assessments.

Here are a number of threads that will hopefully shorten your learning curve.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37610&start=30

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6084&start=160

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6084&start=160

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32180

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 16&t=39681

Good luck.

[Demy]

.
The answers to all your questions (and more) are folded into 'thumper threads' here on HD. Other good sources of info are the personal thumper threads with pics that show what others are running and their hands-on assessments.

Here are a number of threads that will hopefully shorten your learning curve.

Thanks, some I have read them, I asked the questions because they are a bit dated posts and in the meantime there may be other opinions / developments.

[LWTCS]

I don't know why you want to add material handling time to the operation.

[LWTCS]

Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?

[LWTCS]

Yes a smaller steam feed line does accelerate steam vapor speed as well as help to more adequately maintain pressure in the genny. But a control valve can do that too.
Remember that pressure = heat.
Boiling water at 1 bar (15 psi) can produce a steam temp of nearly 250 degrees. I can't recall what 3 psi is capable of? I don't have that committed to memory.
But there are charts all over the net.

[Demy]

Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?

My research starts from the fact that fruit washes with all the pulp are thick, as well as pomace for grappa. I usually use a basket inside the boiler that holds the solids. Then I saw the Steam option and was considering this option on a very small scale, hence the benefits / ease of updating my current system. I thought it was clear, I also made some drawings at the beginning of the post just to make it clearer.

[LWTCS]

2 psi=218.5 F for example.

[LWTCS]

Let's clean up a bit.
Are you focusing on thumpers or on live steam feed?
I feel like the thread is a bit nebulous?

My research starts from the fact that fruit washes with all the pulp are thick, as well as pomace for grappa. I usually use a basket inside the boiler that holds the solids. Then I saw the Steam option and was considering this option on a very small scale, hence the benefits / ease of updating my current system. I thought it was clear, I also made some drawings at the beginning of the post just to make it clearer.

Sure.
But the smaller feed for live steam is not preferable on a thumper.
It's two different philosophies for mass transfer.

Guess I'm the one that's all over the place?

[Demy]

Guess I'm the one that's all over the place?
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this part ... my language doesn't help me!

[LWTCS]

Lol sorry. I was implying that I am easily confused and very frequently forget where I park my car.

I guess I wasn't clear on weather or not your steam source is going to be water or an alcohol mixture in your primary kettle?

Small pipe is fine for heat delivery on this case. But not optimal for mass transfer of your alcohol into the thumper and out to the product condenser.

If you have a rigid screen in your thumper that can elevate above your thumper liquid and spread your pumice out so that it can be uniformly exposed to rising vapor you should be able to do a good job of flashing all of the alcohol (and potential flavor) out of the skins

[Swedish Pride]

So 1/2" is ok if you're only interested to use it as a steam generator.
For alcohol steam what do you recommend 1" or bigger?

[LWTCS]

So 1/2" is ok if you're only interested to use it as a steam generator.
For alcohol steam what do you recommend 1" or bigger?

Staying with more traditional sizes is probably best. 1.5" (40 mm) to 2" (50 mm) seems to work really well for most of us at the hobby scale. We do see some folks using 3/4" but they are the ones usually looking to upgrade as soon as they get their red wings.

[Demy]

Lol sorry. I was implying that I am easily confused and very frequently forget where I park my car.

I guess I wasn't clear on weather or not your steam source is going to be water or an alcohol mixture in your primary kettle?

Small pipe is fine for heat delivery on this case. But not optimal for mass transfer of your alcohol into the thumper and out to the product condenser.

If you have a rigid screen in your thumper that can elevate above your thumper liquid and spread your pumice out so that it can be uniformly exposed to rising vapor you should be able to do a good job of flashing all of the alcohol (and potential flavor) out of the skins

Yes, I meant the tube that carries the steam from the kettle (filled with water only) to the thumper (all the way down to the thumper). Thanks a lot, it's a nice conversation. I believe that many can benefit from it.

[Swedish Pride]

Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry

[Demy]

Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry

In fact, this thing has me confused, I've always read about large pipes (1 inch minimum). A sigh for me.

[LWTCS]

Cheers lad, appreciate it.

Never seen it mentioned before that the pipe size differs from water vapour and alcohol vapour.
Nice nugget there larry

Well it doesn't have to. It just depends on the intended goal really. How versatile you want the rig to be.

A dedicated steam genny (at the hobby scale) doesn't need a very large pipe to transfer heat associated with live steam injection.

19 mm pipe on my steam genny can provide enough steam heat to process 40 gallons of beer an hour on the continuous feed. Of course part of that equation is how many BTUs is heating the water in the genny.
Will be experimenting soon with a larger diameter column to see if that size can feed (and keep up) with the larger column.
I can't do the math and my friend can't get his ASPEN program running after his computer died so practical application is what it'll take to find out I suppose.

[LWTCS]

This from the internet:
Two principal factors determine pipe sizing in a steam system: 1. The initial pressure at the boiler and the allowable pressure drop of the total system. The total pressure drop in the system should not exceed 20% of the total maximum pressure at the boiler. Pressure drops are loss of energy

[LWTCS]

Here is a chart that talks about sizing:

[Demy]

This from the internet:
Two principal factors determine pipe sizing in a steam system: 1. The initial pressure at the boiler and the allowable pressure drop of the total system. The total pressure drop in the system should not exceed 20% of the total maximum pressure at the boiler. Pressure drops are loss of energy

Does this make sense. I guess you have to maintain a certain pressure to feed the thumper steadily without dropping.

[v-child]

Demy, I have to ask, what did you come up with?
I am a follower of the "KISS" principle and certainly not an expert by any means. If it was me trying to extract the last bit of flavor and ETOH from the fermented peels or skins I would run a standard thumper with a perforated "boiler tube" boiling through the mixture of low wines, fruit wash and the waste material. It probably doesn't matter whether it is low entry or side entry if the proper precautions are made for safety. The boiler, or in your case, steam generator probably should be filled with your wash from the same material. I assume you squeezed the fruit wash at some point. I'm pretty sure that water only will end up with a small diluted yield.
I know you live in Italy and I don't know whether you have access to companies like McMasters, but here I can buy 1/2" NPT reversible check valves which I'll run on the boiler and thumper. This will keep the overpressures at bay and keep the cooling boiler from vacuuming the entire contents of the thumper back into itself as it cools. Don't ask how I know this.
Keep the "steam" feed line short as possible, insulated if you can and if you preheat the thumper contents instead of waiting for the steam to do it, it will start the second distilling action faster and keep the condensing action within the thumper at bay. Once things in the thumper are heated up, the chance of an overfill is minimized.

[Demy]

Demy, I have to ask, what did you come up with?

Hi, I learned a lot of notions in this post then I approached a bain-marie system, I think it is more feasible for me. I am still collecting ideas and as soon as I can I will start something. There is an open discussion in the "boilers" section.

[Iulistoi]

Did you tried to put the liquid part of the mash in the boiler and the thick/viscous part in the thumper? How viscous shoud it be to work properly?

I think that boiling water in the boiler means waste of energy. Water heats slower, boils at higher temperature and generate fewer steam than something that already has alcohol (mash or low wine). Anyway, just heating a mass of water means a waste of energy. Instead you can heat clear wash and get more alcohol with less heating/cooling than in the case of water.

I have perforated pipe that bubbles at the buttom of the thumper. Is there any danger of plugging the holes with solids? I want to distill cornmeal, potato, wheat malt and quince mash in the thumper and the mash will be pretty thick.

[tiramisu]

Stupid question time...

Stick a steam pipe in the mash and away you go kind of thing.
What are the downsides of this?

If I'm following properly the idea here is to avoid scorching and remove siphoning/decanting from the process.

The obvious cost seems to be the time and electro pixies that it takes to bring the larger volume up to temperature
Any others?