steam stripping on the grain

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jward
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steam stripping on the grain

Post by jward »

Looking for some clarity. It seems like I read that one shouldn't distill yeast to avoid off flavors. Also, if you ferment on the grain and distill on the grain it seems like the yeast goes into the boiler for distillation too. Am I missing something? My best guess is that while it may be a best practice to leave the yeast and any other junk from the wash behind in the fermenter, but if you distill on the grain then it's not in the cards to leave the yeast and one has accepted that. It may be some yeast varieties are more prone to throw off flavors when distilled and one avoids those when distilling on the grain. Maybe yeast don't contribute off flavors.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Getsmokin »

I feel it's more a factor of direct heat vs indirect heat. Direct heat with will cause different flavors than indirect. Steam stripping on the grain hasn't caused any adverse flavors in my experience. Side note 99% of commercial Bourbon is distilled on the grain.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by TimothyChurch »

I have a jacket still so most of my batches are done grain-in. Hell, even my rums are typically done with trub and solids mixed to some extent. Overall I haven't had any off-flavors due to the yeast.

I do find that batches done with the grain and yeast tend to have more of an effect on my copper plates. I know that one of the main reasons for copper is to help to reduce sulfur from the yeast and fermentation. I'd assume that as long as you have enough copper in there to cancel out the byproducts of the yeast it would be fine.

I know large bourbon distilleries have large copper baffles for precisely that reason and they change those out every year or so due to the effect of the yeast.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Twisted Brick »

I think it's different for everybody.

Early on I squeezed my bourbon ferments and charged the still with the cloudy wash. After a year of (jar) aging I sampled a few drams and they had the unmistakeable taste of (SafAle) yeast so now I clear my squeezed ferments, leaving a pretty thick cake of custard behind.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by jward »

Thanks, Getsmokin. Thanks, TimothyChurch. I am still thinking about how to get enough copper into an all SS still. Thanks, Twisted Brick. Are you steam stripping when you pick up the SafAle in the product?
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Twisted Brick »

jward wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:13 am Thanks, Twisted Brick. Are you steam stripping when you pick up the SafAle in the product?
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by tombombadil »

Every commercial bourbon maker distills without removing the yeast.

It looks like the scotch producers do it as well. They're fermenting off the grain, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they're letting their beer clear before stripping it.

Come to think of it, I've never heard of any commercial producers intentionally removing the yeast before striping.

They just pump it over and run it right?

I don't taste it in my likker but I haven't been doing this very long.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Prairiepiss »

Most of the time it’s said to not because. Either the yeast and stuff can scorch To the bottom of a boiler using fire. Or scorch to an electric element. The scorching of the yeast is what you give you a nasty taste.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I've made whiskey with steam and I've made whiskey with fire.

I've done the side by side comparisons, and there is a substantial difference in flavor between running clear, racked ferment, and cloudy stuff including yeast, trub, and grain.

I'm not saying that if I ran it all together it would taste like yeast, or have "off" flavors, but when I run them separately I much prefer the cleared ferment. It's not even close. I couldn't care less how commercial whiskey is made.

It's an easy thing to do. Next time you run a batch just pull off the cleared ferment and run that, then squeeze the rest and run that cloudy. Keep the two runs separate and see how they taste after the spirit runs. If you think it's all good, just mix them together, nothing lost.

I built a steam stripper just so I could say goodbye to all the straining and squeezing. I was not happy with the results and I do not strip on grain anymore. I am still squeezing, straining, and racking. I prefer the product that way.

It's not about whether the clear is "better" than the cloudy, or on-grain, that is a subjective choice, but to suggest that a spirit made from a clear racked ferment is the same as one from clear, grain, yeast and all, well that's just not true.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by SaltyStaves »

Scotch distillers will literally pump an active ferment straight from the washbacks into the wash stills in order to keep to their schedules.
They don't care about those pesky washes that don't finish, because the volumes that they are working with will nullify any variation/anomaly.
Many have a fermentation regime that has a longer fermentation (hours) over the weekend, but come Monday morning, if the yeast ain't finished...Tough! Its gettin stripped..

We don't have the same concern and we can be patient. Or not.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by malt_lover »

Couldn’t have said it better. Just because a commercial company is doing it, doesn’t make it ok, otherwise why would we be into this.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by BlueSasquatch »

MichiganCornhusker wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm I've made whiskey with steam and I've made whiskey with fire.

I've done the side by side comparisons, and there is a substantial difference in flavor between running clear, racked ferment, and cloudy stuff including yeast, trub, and grain.

I'm not saying that if I ran it all together it would taste like yeast, or have "off" flavors, but when I run them separately I much prefer the cleared ferment. It's not even close. I couldn't care less how commercial whiskey is made.

It's an easy thing to do. Next time you run a batch just pull off the cleared ferment and run that, then squeeze the rest and run that cloudy. Keep the two runs separate and see how they taste after the spirit runs. If you think it's all good, just mix them together, nothing lost.

I built a steam stripper just so I could say goodbye to all the straining and squeezing. I was not happy with the results and I do not strip on grain anymore. I am still squeezing, straining, and racking. I prefer the product that way.

It's not about whether the clear is "better" than the cloudy, or on-grain, that is a subjective choice, but to suggest that a spirit made from a clear racked ferment is the same as one from clear, grain, yeast and all, well that's just not true.
Can you go into a bit more detail about how you clear your wash? Just siphon off the top? Or do you cold crash it? let it sit for a couple days? I ferment on the grain and found its almost always cloudy even before I strain the grain.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Hambone »

Clear is a relative term. The grain and trub is settled but the wash isn’t necessarily crystal clear. I don’t cold crash...unless it’s winter, I guess.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I can contribute on the clearing that I do for most everything - I'll treat it like I do wimes and transfer the liquid to carboys at a point either close to when it finishes fermentation or shortly after. I have about 20x carboys (mix of 3/5/6 gallon glass carboys).. If it's not completely finished (say SG of 1.015) and depending on my schedule - I'll rack it to secondary and squeeze / rack.... I then airlock it and let it finish fermenting... As it get's below an SG of 1.000 or stops dropping close to these (depending on any unfermentables that might be in the AG beer or whatever it is) I'll consider that finished and rack off any sediment - the sediment will compact to a certain degree over more time so if it hasn't compacted i'll just wait it out another week to maximize the clear "wash" I can get.... Eventually I'll rack off the sediment into a clean carboy and at that point I am also degassing - I use a vacuum system to transfer and am able to seal carboys under vacuum - all of that helps with degassing and without CO2 bubbles liberating from the liquid more sediment will drop - more time... I might end up clearing an AG for a couple weeks or months depending on how I feel and my schedule... In any case I top up the carboy as it becomes degassed and store it under vacuum - this allows for much longer term bulk storage and further dropping of any sediment but it's pretty clear by that point so I'm mostly concerned with scheduling my run times over a weekend and might have say eight or nine carboys cleared to strip for a particular AG run.... Different mash's may get to different levels of clarity - I had a particular one that stayed quite cloudy even after six months clearing in carboy and turned into a great spirit and it still dropped a bunch of sediment over that time but it never really cleared like a beer or wine.

The vacuum pump system really helps me and makes transfers or racking off sediment very easy with the added benefit of degassing under vacuum (this pulls the CO2 out of the liquid pretty quickly). Bringing the temp up to 75-80*f for a racking will also help liberate CO2 and degass.

Degassing and racking off sediment in my experience helps significantly reduce pukes on a strip (along with a long slow fores collection)...

I can usually count on a comfortable 4-6 weeks from starting a mash to spirit run but could reduce that too probably say fourteen days if I really wanted to..

I have considered building a steam rig as well but haven't done it yet - Here's a list of my personal pro's and cons that have kept me from messing with it:

Pro:
- Cooking on the grain for a strip - This is going to bring over different flavor - could be good or bad but I'd consider this an added element of control in the profile of the end product so mostly good (if you like what it adds)
- No squeezing - Who likes squeezing? Well it's not that bad and only takes about an hour or maybe two...
- You get to harvest all the alcohol - even from the trub. I generally hate throwing out good ETOH!

Con:
- 12 gallons of hot mash porridge to deal with... This does not sound fun by any stretch of my imagination - especially right after a strip run when I'd like to clean up and move on to something else - maybe a second or third strip in a day...
- Still need to dispose of the leftover and it's still very hot at the end of a run.. Turn the thumper upside down with 12 gallons of hot stinky slurry? no-thanks!
- Added complexity when I already have an end to end mash/ferment/squeeze/clear/strip protocol that works very well - might add a week or three but how often do I really do a 45 gallon run? not that often..

Other thoughts:
- Adding more variables doesn't necessarily mean that they're all contributing to a better product - more time playing with extra variables in the process to determine what is actually better and how much better for the end product
- KISS - I'll change anything and add complexity but KISS is almost always a driving factor for me unless there is significant benefit from more process complexity.

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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:35 am
Can you go into a bit more detail about how you clear your wash? Just siphon off the top? Or do you cold crash it? let it sit for a couple days? I ferment on the grain and found its almost always cloudy even before I strain the grain.
Once its finished, I wait 2-3 days to let my 12.5gal ferment clear. After racking the top 6gal of 'clear' into a carboy, I squeeze the remaining grain into a conical fermenter for clearing and trub compaction. After a week the compacted trub/yeast custard (bourbon ferment) measures about 1.5 gallons. The ferment in the carboy has also dropped out a small amount of yeast. I used to leave this behind until I read about Fischer Esterification, where yeast can produce significant esters in the still especially during a long, slow heat up.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Hambone »

Wow, you guys really have lots of patience. I do three 50 gal ferments. Let grain cap settle, pull clear and into stripping run it goes. Scoop grain onto geotextile fabric on the mouth of a fourth 55 gal drum…it drains sufficiently during the time of my stripping run. Repeat two more times for my other fermenters. By the next morning the yeast trub that made it through the fabric has settled and I pump the cleared wash for the fourth stripping run.

I use a pump that I can control the flow rate so I don’t disturb the solids.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've also heard of some folks just making larger ferments to get the clear off top when finished/dropped then topping up with water and sugar for a secondary sugarhead and really not worrying too much about wringing every last drop out of the grains or mucking around too much with clearing / etc... I might try this soon too with straight corn since I just picked up three blue HDPE barrels that's going to change my AG process anyway.

Hambone, do you have a link for that geotextile fabric? Pretty sure I've seen that mentioned in a couple threads about not really getting clogged up..

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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:19 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:35 am
Can you go into a bit more detail about how you clear your wash? Just siphon off the top? Or do you cold crash it? let it sit for a couple days? I ferment on the grain and found its almost always cloudy even before I strain the grain.
Once its finished, I wait 2-3 days to let my 12.5gal ferment clear. After racking the top 6gal of 'clear' into a carboy, I squeeze the remaining grain into a conical fermenter for clearing and trub compaction. After a week the compacted trub/yeast custard (bourbon ferment) measures about 1.5 gallons. The ferment in the carboy has also dropped out a small amount of yeast. I used to leave this behind until I read about Fischer Esterification, where yeast can produce significant esters in the still especially during a long, slow heat up.
So siphon off as much clear liquid as possible, then filter/squeeze the excess, and let that cloudy mess settle before siphoning it again, and tossing the solids from both steps? Confused me a bit on "I used to leave this behind" do you mean you used to leave it in your still and now you dont? Or that you used to leave it in your 2nd clearing and now you use it? If that's the case, why let it clear a 2nd time?
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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This is what I got. Drains ridiculously quickly. Strong enough to hold 90 lbs (dry weight) of wet corn meal without a problem. Rinse it out and it’s good to go again. My first 6x6 ft section still going strong.

Tip of the hat to GFW for coming up with the idea. I’ll never squeeze again.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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Hambone wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:37 pm

This is what I got. Drains ridiculously quickly. Strong enough to hold 90 lbs (dry weight) of wet corn meal without a problem. Rinse it out and it’s good to go again. My first 6x6 ft section still going strong.

Tip of the hat to GFW for coming up with the idea. I’ll never squeeze again.
Wanna sell me some of that 50 foot roll? :mrgreen:
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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Sure. PM me
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Twisted Brick »

.
BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:22 pm
So siphon off as much clear liquid as possible, then filter/squeeze the excess, and let that cloudy mess settle before siphoning it again, and tossing the solids from both steps?
Correct. The yeast from the first rack that falls out in the carboy I now include in my strip boiler charge. The squeezed wash goes into the conical and as it clears, goes into gallon jugs every other day or so. The last dregs from the conical is difficult to separate, so I scoop it into a tall glass vase and let it separate over the last few days. The conical custard that remains gets tossed.
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Cleared wash.jpg
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IMG_8176.jpg
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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Hambone wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:47 am Wow, you guys really have lots of patience. I do three 50 gal ferments. Let grain cap settle, pull clear and into stripping run it goes. Scoop grain onto geotextile fabric on the mouth of a fourth 55 gal drum…it drains sufficiently during the time of my stripping run. Repeat two more times for my other fermenters. By the next morning the yeast trub that made it through the fabric has settled and I pump the cleared wash for the fourth stripping run.

I use a pump that I can control the flow rate so I don’t disturb the solids.
I do [basically] the same thing as TB with 25 gallon ferments. After the ferment finishes, I pump the top 10 gallons or so into buckets and squeeze the grains in a mop wringer. I end up with five 5 gallon buckets that I let settle for a week or so, then pump into the still for stripping.
I'll combine the trub into one bucket to settle some more and get another gallon of clear for the spirit run. My recovery rate from 25 gallons of water and 50 pounds of grain is pretty consistently 23 gallons of beer for the still.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by BlueSasquatch »

I'll have to go clearing a wash a run, I ferment on grain, all grain, 5 gallon buckets. After 2 weeks usually, I dump it into another bucket with a bag strainer, and I strain it as I go, it seems like half the time I got grain floating and other times grain at the bottom and sometimes I swear it's all a slurry, so I'm not sure I can siphon off much clear, but im sure it could sit for a while and become more clear, after removing the solids.

Anyways I'm almost always running a very cloudy AG in my pot still, and haven't had a terrible time with it yet, puke once in a while that I figured had to do with filling it to much and running to aggressive during the start up.

My new system that is almost done is a keg still with a keg thumper. With a future addition of a pre-heat keg which will just be full of the same wash as the primary, but with a copper tube through the center to try and pre-heat the wash so there is less time to start running with it? Giving it a shot.

Anyways with the thumper I was going to give distilling on the grain a go, the Buffalo trace white dog has such a strong and nice flavor, id like to be able to make something similar and I'm wanting to see if steam distilling on grain, would get me something similar. Never having to squeeze the mash sounds great to me.

But this thread is suggesting that the more clear and filtered the better the outcome, which I can see some of the reasoning. So I'm excited to give it a try and be able to compare three different routes.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by LWTCS »

Not withstanding any percieved interpretation about quality.,
"Grain in" for any part of the production process enhances the productivity for yeild and man hours needed for the additional materials handling.
I'd reckon that alone has far more to do with why the big bourbon houses use grain in techniques.

Also, the continuous stills used don't really render the same product as the batch systems do with respect to depth of complexity is my observation.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:51 am
Also, the continuous stills used don't really render the same product as the batch systems do with respect to depth of complexity is my observation.
+1

This is why Brown & Foreman (who blends "pot-distilled" bourbon with their column-stilled bourbon product) markets it with three magically-productive copper pot stills.

I admit a totally subjective assessment, but a side-by-side comparison of my home-double-distilled/aged bourbon with a Makers Mark proved the commercial stuff noticeably shy on complexity.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:57 am
LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:51 am
Also, the continuous stills used don't really render the same product as the batch systems do with respect to depth of complexity is my observation.
+1

This is why Brown & Foreman (who blends "pot-distilled" bourbon with their column-stilled bourbon product) markets it with three magically-productive copper pot stills.

I admit a totally subjective assessment, but a side-by-side comparison of my home-double-distilled/aged bourbon with a Makers Mark proved the commercial stuff noticeably shy on complexity.

Oh, actually I was referring to the polar opposite haha.

The continuous system whiskey seems more aromatic and has more depth on mouth feel, chewy, oily is my experience.
But does need to be put down.
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Re: steam stripping on the grain

Post by Twisted Brick »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:06 pm
The continuous system whiskey seems more aromatic and has more depth on mouth feel, chewy, oily is my experience.
But does need to be put down.
Interesting, Larry. More aromatic is good! I enjoy chewy beers, but am still enamored with the 'high-octane' finish of a well-crafted and aged spirit. Might indicate there's a lot more sampling that needs to be done. :mrgreen:
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