Steam build

Steam powered cooking and distillation devices.

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Re: Steam build

Post by subbrew »

shadylane wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:09 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:20 pm If I can’t get enough pressure hold with weights I will rig that up! Good idea.
Just a guestimation and I might be wrong :lol:
With a 1" ball
It's going to take 1.3 pounds of pressure holding the ball down for every PSI
don't think this is correct. Assuming the ID of the seat is 3/4 the surface area for the pressure is pi * r ^2 = 3.14 * 3/8^2 = .442 square inch. So, ignoring the ball weight you would need .442 lb of spring force for each one lb of steam you want to contain. So as an example of you have a 3 lb spring your valve would not lift until you had 3 lb/.442 + weight of ball in lb = 6.79 psi + ball weight
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Re: Steam build

Post by 30xs »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm A4C40EEE-6D55-4FFD-9A39-6C1E907F95E7.jpeg

Finally getting a start on my steam build. Here is a pic of my boiler column and pressure relief valve.

A little copper plating on the 304 stainless and it all matches up! All the joints are filed and sanded.

Waiting for USPS to deliver a few more parts.
What was your method of plating? It looks awesome!!
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Re: Steam build

Post by Dancing4dan »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:54 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:40 am The pressure relief valve needs some explaining. It is as yet untested.

It consists of a ball and seat. The seat is a piece of 3/4 coupling and the ball is a 1” bearing. The coupling has been lapped so the ball seals on the end of the coupling. The spring from a keg has a washer liver soldered to one end. There is a space between the washer and the ball as demonstrated by a copper ring in the photos. The spring and washer are only for containing the ball and just sit over the ball. It is not soldered to the column.

The space between the washer and the ball can be stacked with dollar coins to add weight to the ball so it can be calibrated to the pressure required.
So how have you found this to work? I greatly like the look of this, over a purchased valve. I am needing something for my new rig, and with a 2" Tee with a top-Cap, It would be an easy switch to put a 2x1 reducer like you have shown.

What do you mean the coupling has been lapped? You've got a 2x1 reducer and a 3/4" coupling soldered on the inside to the 1" portion of the reducer? The 1" ball bearing sits on top, another 3/4" coupling ontop of that, and the spring with washer, keeps the whole thing together, while providing downward pressure to the ball. Correct?
The reducer is 2X1/2. Has a 3/4 section of tubing soldered over the 1/2 end.

The 3/4 section has been lapped to “fit” the curvature of the 1” ball. Lapping is accomplished by rotating the ball on the copper surface with a mild abrasive between the copper and ball. This forms a surface on the copper that is ground down slightly to match the shape of the ball. Similar to how we lapped engine valves back in the day. This gives a slight surface for the ball to seal on rather than a sharp edge that is produced by a tubing cutter.

The spring just sits there loosely holding it all together.

The PRV in combination with the manometer allows two places for pressure to escape if there is a blockage as well as a visual indication of pressure by the height of water in the manometer.

The boiler has been run on full boil with all steam passing through the PRV by manually obstructing the steam arm. Steam blows off upward with no horizontal steam flow. In the event of an obstruction the operator only has to cut power to the element and steam production stops within a few seconds.
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Re: Steam build

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Dan, have you calculated water usage based on heat input yet? Over the course of say,,,5 minutes.
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Re: Steam build

Post by Grundefuht »

Dancing4dan wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:40 pm Some progress. IMG_3395-3.jpeg
Without any offence, just as my personal experience with steam builds says:
1. If no wash preheating will be made - steam generator will be chuffing like a choo-choo train(at high enough heating power). This is might be quite dangerous because all construction will shatter periodically.
2. Long steam tube wants to get some thermal insulation.
Last edited by Grundefuht on Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steam build

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Grundefuht wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:01 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:40 pm Some progress. IMG_3395-3.jpeg
Without any offence, just as for my personal experience with steam builds says:
1. If no wash preheating will be made - steam generator will be chuffing like a choo-choo train(at high enough heating power). This is might be quite dangerous because all construction will shatter periodically.
2. Long steam tube wants to get some thermal insulation.
Are you referring to steam hammering?
Not withstanding having a dedicated preheat for the wash, what else could you have done to mitigate the steam hammering do you think?
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Re: Steam build

Post by Grundefuht »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:18 pm Are you referring to steam hammering?
Not withstanding having a dedicated preheat for the wash, what else could you have done to mitigate the steam hammering do you think?
Checked forum for "steam hammering" - yes, I wrote exactly about that.

While building still I foresaw that injecting steam to cold wash could cause trouble and made tube with pump (and expansion tank(cup)) circulating water inside both tanks (SteamGenerator and Still)
Once i tried to make a run with pump offline and noticed that "Steam hammering", turning pump ON and after a while everything is OK. In my build, once wash is boiling, it is safe to turn off pump and run just by steam.

Maybe if you would inject steam with really HIGH power (high pressure, high temp) so it could pierce wash - it would minimize hammering but that pressures are outside hobby level.
I would never ever use high pressure steam at home. Never. Ever.
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Re: Steam build

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Input steam at a measured pace
Get the vessels hot.
Charge the kettle with beer.
Cap the charge.
Increase heat.
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Re: Steam build

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LWTCS wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:20 pm Input steam at a measured pace
Get the vessels hot.
Charge the kettle with beer.
Increase heat.
PRV and vaccum break a requisite.
Last edited by LWTCS on Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Double post
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Re: Steam build

Post by Grundefuht »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:20 pm Input steam at a measured pace
Get the vessels hot.
Charge the kettle with beer.
Cap the charge.
Increase heat.
Huh.. might work if charge is small.

after i'd charge kettle with my common charge (85 litres) it will be cold.
it takes almost hour to heatup charge with 6kW
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Re: Steam build

Post by LWTCS »

That is not my experience at all
408 watts per gallon
Grundefuht wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:16 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:20 pm Input steam at a measured pace
Get the vessels hot.
Charge the kettle with beer.
Cap the charge.
Increase heat.
Huh.. might work if charge is small.

after i'd charge kettle with my common charge (85 litres) it will be cold.
it takes almost hour to heatup charge with 6kW
At atmosphere that sounds about right.
70 watts per liter is just about (+ or -) where ya need to be for a 1 hour heat up time.

1 bar (less than a bicycle tire) changes things considerably.
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Re: Steam build

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My boiler is 4500 W 240 V.

Steam is used for stripping only.

My wash charge gets pre heated with a banjo burner that is run real low until the boiler starts to thump steam into the wash vessel at which time I turn up the propane. This will prevent scorching. Once product starts I shut everything down for a few minutes then bring electric boiler back on at 50% and slowly increase it to 100%.

Never had a problem with steam hammer.

Everything gets thermal insulation once I am confident there are no leaks. That includes boiler, steam arm and wash vessel, as well as the riser on the wash vessel.
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Re: Steam build

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Thread needed updated photos.
86CB8EA7-8BC4-4992-A5C4-551228236C26.jpeg
2A5CAF16-14A0-4CA3-B750-B94CD8F7F707.jpeg
This system functions similar to a thumper or doubler and has worked well to strip on grain. Photos are without the insulation so viewers can see the mechanics.

Please read my explanation of the PRV back in the thread carefully. The PRV functions like pressure cooker relief valve and has been tested by blocking the steam arm 100% forcing all steam out the PRV. Pressure relief is NOT spring loaded. PRV dumps steam in a controlled manner.

The manometer is polycarbonate. It gives an indication of how much pressure is in the steam system. Being open to atmosphere it also functions as a secondary PRV. It also allows atmosphere back into the system if there is a loss of steam or sudden cooling causing a vacuum.

Wash pot is preheated with propane while steam boiler is coming up to temperature. Does not produce steam hammer.

The power controller has a shut off switch and gets located for easy access incase of PRV or manometer venting.
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Re: Steam build

Post by Oatmeal »

Appreciate being able to see this. Thanks for taking the time to post it! I've been fermenting in a 15 gallon brew pot, and the next logical step is to add the ability to steam strip.....

How are you securing the lid of your pot? (Did I miss this in the thread?) I got some spring latches to solder to the side of the pot.
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Re: Steam build

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Oatmeal wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:39 am How are you securing the lid of your pot? (Did I miss this in the thread?) I got some spring latches to solder to the side of the pot.
Spring clips will work fine.

I made a Teflon tape wrapped gasket for the lid and Anvil sells a silicone gasket for fermenting in these pots. The Teflon gasket sits on the lid flange and the lid is secured with anvils silicone gasket. The silicone wraps around the outside of the lid and top lip of the pot.

Before anyone gets a bunchie in their britches the Teflon gasket seals the pot and the silicone is not exposed to the boil.
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Re: Steam build

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Gotta love all the disclaimers you gotta make when posting updates, for those that didn't read the whole thread.

Looks great, I'm going to follow suit with your top of boiler PRV, What's the capacity of the brew pot? You use this to strip, how have you found stripping on the grain to be? How full is your pot/any issues with puking? Do you have quite the mess in the end, or does the used-mash pour out well enough? Wasn't sure if it would cook/cake on in spots, need a good scrub. Do you also steam-cook?

I see in another post "20 gallon pot is used for mash, ferment and thumper in my steam rig. Ferment on grain. Steam on grain in the summer months. BIAB during the winter and pull grain prior to steam. The BIAB just makes it easier to clean when it’s -30C outside. "

gives me second thoughts about a keg-thumper utilizing as a on-grain stripper, without having anything larger than 2" ports.

Also, could you toss a link up to that spring you are using to keep the cap on the ball? How did you solder the 3/4" coupling on the inside of that reducer? My kingdom for a quick picture of the inside of that fitting?
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Re: Steam build

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BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:17 am Gotta love all the disclaimers you gotta make when posting updates, for those that didn't read the whole thread.

Looks great, I'm going to follow suit with your top of boiler PRV, What's the capacity of the brew pot? You use this to strip, how have you found stripping on the grain to be? How full is your pot/any issues with puking? Do you have quite the mess in the end, or does the used-mash pour out well enough? Wasn't sure if it would cook/cake on in spots, need a good scrub. Do you also steam-cook?

I see in another post "20 gallon pot is used for mash, ferment and thumper in my steam rig. Ferment on grain. Steam on grain in the summer months. BIAB during the winter and pull grain prior to steam. The BIAB just makes it easier to clean when it’s -30C outside. "

gives me second thoughts about a keg-thumper utilizing as a on-grain stripper, without having anything larger than 2" ports.

Also, could you toss a link up to that spring you are using to keep the cap on the ball? How did you solder the 3/4" coupling on the inside of that reducer? My kingdom for a quick picture of the inside of that fitting?
I use a 20 gallon pot with about 16 gallons in the pot. More and it will puke. Get quite a bit more low wines by steam stripping on grain. It is messy but does not bake on. I don’t steam cook.

I would not try a keg for an on grain steam pot unless it had a BIG opening.

The PRV spring just sits there. It is a spring from a keg valve.

The reducer is actually a 2” to 1/2 reducer with a short piece of 3/4 coupler soldered on top. Sits outside the 1/2 inch section not inside. The 3/4 section held and sealed the 1” ball better.

To understand how it seals google “lapping valves” same idea. A drop of veg oil and it seals after being lapped.
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Re: Steam build

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Dancing4dan wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:31 pm I use a 20 gallon pot with about 16 gallons in the pot. More and it will puke. Get quite a bit more low wines by steam stripping on grain. It is messy but does not bake on. I don’t steam cook.

I would not try a keg for an on grain steam pot unless it had a BIG opening.

The PRV spring just sits there. It is a spring from a keg valve.

The reducer is actually a 2” to 1/2 reducer with a short piece of 3/4 coupler soldered on top. Sits outside the 1/2 inch section not inside. The 3/4 section held and sealed the 1” ball better.

To understand how it seals google “lapping valves” same idea. A drop of veg oil and it seals after being lapped.
Perfect Dan, thanks for the reply! The 2--1/2 makes much more sense, not sure why I assumed 2--1, also great news about it being a keg valve spring, I've got a half dozen of those, been wanting to repurpose those keg spears into something, idk what yet, tiki torches or something.

I've been thinking on that, may ask my welder to toss a 6-8 inch port on the top of the thumper, so that I can more easily strip on the grain. Also curious if you think one could strip on the grain, while in a BIAB? just for the ease of clean-up, could cook, ferment and distill with the grains contained pretty well.
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Re: Steam build

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I have not steam distilled with a BIAB in place. Not sure about the temperature / alcohol effect on the bags.
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Re: Steam build

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Love all that copper plating, looks professional! Very nice work.

I’m intrigued by the steam concept. You guys just doing this so you can strip and never worry about scorching a sloppy wash without agitation?

Crazy I’ve been on here for a while and never really researched this.
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Re: Steam build

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BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:31 am Love all that copper plating, looks professional! Very nice work.

I’m intrigued by the steam concept. You guys just doing this so you can strip and never worry about scorching a sloppy wash without agitation?

Crazy I’ve been on here for a while and never really researched this.
Couple reasons.
*The heat transfer with live steam does a nice job of bringing over some of those oily, chewy qualities that many (bourbon / rye) whiskey enthusiasts enjoy.
*Likely increases yield compared to squeezing.
*Eliminates the aggravation / man hours associated with with squeezing.
*Cool factor
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Re: Steam build

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LWTCS wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:45 am
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:31 am Love all that copper plating, looks professional! Very nice work.

I’m intrigued by the steam concept. You guys just doing this so you can strip and never worry about scorching a sloppy wash without agitation?

Crazy I’ve been on here for a while and never really researched this.
Couple reasons.
*The heat transfer with live steam does a nice job of bringing over some of those oily, chewy qualities that many (bourbon / rye) whiskey enthusiasts enjoy.
*Likely increases yield compared to squeezing.
*Eliminates the aggravation / man hours associated with with squeezing.
*Cool factor
Sounds awesome! I do large bourbon washes and squeeze with a mop wringer. This seems like a much better option.

I wanted to try a 100% oats wash and this might be the ticket for that. I did a CROW bourbon recently and even that was a PITA to squeeze. I have a T500 boiler just laying around not getting used anymore, wondering if I could modify the lid for that to accept steam from my keg boiler? I suppose it would be simple to add a PRV to my fill port ferrule on the keg.

Now when we say steam, are you talking about loading actual wash to the first boiler and the sloppy grains to the next one down the line? I guess that kinda sounds more like a thumper.
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Re: Steam build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Another question Dan, don't mean to beat this horse this much. The 1" ball sits on a lapped 3/4" coupling, which is soldered in place, outside of the 2x1.5 reducer. Does the ball itself have any contact with the 1/2" opening? Could you have just used a 2x3/4" reducer? or do those not exist? Did you cut down the 3/4" coupling any or is that full length?
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Re: Steam build

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BlueSasquatch wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:50 am Another question Dan, don't mean to beat this horse this much. The 1" ball sits on a lapped 3/4" coupling, which is soldered in place, outside of the 2x1.5 reducer. Does the ball itself have any contact with the 1/2" opening? Could you have just used a 2x3/4" reducer? or do those not exist? Did you cut down the 3/4" coupling any or is that full length?
No contact with 1/2 inch opening.

Could have used a 2” X 3/4” reducer but I had this one left over from my first still.

I think I cut the coupling in half. Might even be just a piece of 3/4 tubing which would work fine.
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Re: Steam build

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LWTCS wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:45 am
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:31 am Love all that copper plating, looks professional! Very nice work.

I’m intrigued by the steam concept. You guys just doing this so you can strip and never worry about scorching a sloppy wash without agitation?

Crazy I’ve been on here for a while and never really researched this.
Couple reasons.
*The heat transfer with live steam does a nice job of bringing over some of those oily, chewy qualities that many (bourbon / rye) whiskey enthusiasts enjoy.
*Likely increases yield compared to squeezing.
*Eliminates the aggravation / man hours associated with with squeezing.
*Cool factor
I started with steam to deal with corn. BIAB and corn is how I started AG. chose the steep path for some reason. Had some very difficult days trying to strain corn. When I started adding oats it got more difficult. Definitely easier to strain after ferment but there is a fair amount of ethanol left in the grain after squeezing. Trub is also loaded with ethanol and using corn and Flieshmans yeast makes for a lot of trub. Seemed like a lot of waste to me. Hence the steam stripping rig. My yield is higher with steam. Have compared squeeze output vs steam and steam always wins the volume thing.

Don’t notice a big taste difference between steam strip on grain or off after it has been through a spirit run. I do the strip and spirit run routine so anything that is steam stripped gets run again. Some guys claim they taste yeast and different grain flavours. I don’t so it works for me.

With my LM/ VM Still heads and tails get compressed and funky flavours seem to go to one or the other.
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Re: Steam build

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BlueSasquatch wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:16 amAlso curious if you think one could strip on the grain, while in a BIAB? just for the ease of clean-up, could cook, ferment and distill with the grains contained pretty well.
After your question I emailed “The Brew Bag” company who supplied my BIAB and asked about temperature tolerance. Answer came back 320* F! I will be trying a steam strip with my BIAB for sure!
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Re: Steam build

Post by shadylane »

Sounds like the bag can take the temp
But what is the bag made of and how will it react with alcohol vapor?
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Re: Steam build

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shadylane wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:47 pm Sounds like the bag can take the temp
But what is the bag made of and how will it react with alcohol vapor?
Good question

https://www.calpaclab.com/nylon-chemica ... ity-chart/
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Re: Steam build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Distilling while in BIAB just seems like a no-brainer for clean up, but due diligence is needed to see what the effects would be, if any. I'm also curious what size opening is minimum on a keg, for BIAB to be work-able. I'm looking to steam-mash and ferment, in kegs with modified opening, Mile-Hi has 4,6 and 8 inch ports for reasonable prices, would be nice to narrow down the vessels needed to clean and handle, I can't get enough of kegs for some reason.
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Re: Steam build

Post by NormandieStill »

If I wanted to do an on-grain distillation with contained grains, I would prefer to use a stainless steel setup à la Malt Pipe. There are various sellers on Aliexpress and Amazon selling "grain baskets" which are essentially a stainless steel mesh in a cage which keeps it rigid.

I'm on a mission to remove all plastics from my process, starting with the highest temperature applications and working down. Until I can justify the purchase of a malt pipe, I will continue to use BIAB for mashing, but I would never subject it to 90C+ for the hour or so required to strip.
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