"Steam Outfit" Questions

[King Of Hearts]

I've also seen little ventury pump like injectors. Where it has an orifice with a larger area after it and a hole in the side. The steam passing through the orifice sucks liquid into the stream through the hole in the side.

I found this nice little article while researching beer brewing.
http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/ ... S1295.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

That reminds me sort of the way a gas manifold works, drawing in air to mix with it. But the orifice is first, shoots thru the air intake shooting it out the burner.

[King Of Hearts]

Here is a pic of how it works. But mine would have more than one opening for the liquid, maybe 4.

[King Of Hearts]

Here is another little gadget similar to Miles.

[Prairiepiss]

I'm thinking much more simplistic. Like one of these off a blow gun.

7520241811p.jpeg (3.6 KiB) Viewed 4787 times

[King Of Hearts]

Exactly. It might have to be bigger tho. As long as the steam is first and the mixer part/holes, venturi, head toward the wash. How much water do you use Miles for a ten gal wash?

[myles]

Don't know. I start with 40 litres in the keg and have never run out yet. But as I said I have only used it occasionally for mashing. Have not tried a strip run as I have not had a suitable boiler.

I did a test on one of the poly drums that I have to see if it would take the heat as it is a food grade drum. It was good but softened a little bit. I decided not to use it as a boiler but it is OK for mashing in.

[King Of Hearts]

Don't know. I start with 40 litres in the keg and have never run out yet. But as I said I have only used it occasionally for mashing. Have not tried a strip run as I have not had a suitable boiler.

I did a test on one of the poly drums that I have to see if it would take the heat as it is a food grade drum. It was good but softened a little bit. I decided not to use it as a boiler but it is OK for mashing in.

I read 15% of the wash volume is used from a self described, steam junkie. Some people use pressure cookers. I would use a half barrel since I already have one with a closed top ready to go. But you should use stainless piping for strength.

[ozone39]

Couple things to keep in mind with steam injection. Your boiler and all associated piping need to be food grade (ie 316 S.S, 304 would work). If you run cast iron plates or a carbon steel tube boiler with black iron pipe to your still all that shit from non clean piping will end up in your wash.....Generally in food grade they will use steam over steam heat exchangers, shitty steam on one side, clean steam on the other (other wise your boiler and all piping have to be stainless steel)...I have installed a couple of these systems in building humidification systems. Clean steam side is fed with RO or DI water to make sure it is clean and safe for human consumption and your heating steam (power steam) can be of what ever quality...If you use steam injection you also have to replenish your water (to make up for steam loss), this needs to be clean water as well. I run a steam unit, but it is a self powered natural gas commercial kitchen steam kettle (hobart), all closed loop with in it self. Works great.....As well food grade stuff is expensive, For hobby purposes I would stay away from steam injection and just stick to a steam kettle or some similar application....Keep in mind to that I would only recommend using a vessel (boiler)that has an ASME stamp on it and is rated and being used for it designed purpose.. Steam is a nasty bitch when she comes apart....

[King Of Hearts]

Couple things to keep in mind with steam injection. Your boiler and all associated piping need to be food grade (ie 316 S.S, 304 would work). If you run cast iron plates or a carbon steel tube boiler with black iron pipe to your still all that shit from non clean piping will end up in your wash.....Generally in food grade they will use steam over steam heat exchangers, shitty steam on one side, clean steam on the other (other wise your boiler and all piping have to be stainless steel)...I have installed a couple of these systems in building humidification systems. Clean steam side is fed with RO or DI water to make sure it is clean and safe for human consumption and your heating steam (power steam) can be of what ever quality...If you use steam injection you also have to replenish your water (to make up for steam loss), this needs to be clean water as well. I run a steam unit, but it is a self powered natural gas commercial kitchen steam kettle (hobart), all closed loop with in it self. Works great.....As well food grade stuff is expensive, For hobby purposes I would stay away from steam injection and just stick to a steam kettle or some similar application....Keep in mind to that I would only recommend using a vessel (boiler)that has an ASME stamp on it and is rated and being used for it designed purpose.. Steam is a nasty bitch when she comes apart....

Thanks Ozone, what pressure would it take to work? I'm thinking a big pressure cooker with stainless pipe steam rated if I decided to try it.

[Tater]

Couple things to keep in mind with steam injection. Your boiler and all associated piping need to be food grade (ie 316 S.S, 304 would work). If you run cast iron plates or a carbon steel tube boiler with black iron pipe to your still all that shit from non clean piping will end up in your wash.....Generally in food grade they will use steam over steam heat exchangers, shitty steam on one side, clean steam on the other (other wise your boiler and all piping have to be stainless steel)...I have installed a couple of these systems in building humidification systems. Clean steam side is fed with RO or DI water to make sure it is clean and safe for human consumption and your heating steam (power steam) can be of what ever quality...If you use steam injection you also have to replenish your water (to make up for steam loss), this needs to be clean water as well. I run a steam unit, but it is a self powered natural gas commercial kitchen steam kettle (hobart), all closed loop with in it self. Works great.....As well food grade stuff is expensive, For hobby purposes I would stay away from steam injection and just stick to a steam kettle or some similar application....Keep in mind to that I would only recommend using a vessel (boiler)that has an ASME stamp on it and is rated and being used for it designed purpose.. Steam is a nasty bitch when she comes apart....

Thanks Ozone, what pressure would it take to work? I'm thinking a big pressure cooker with stainless pipe steam rated if I decided to try it.

For small still like my keg I use copper pipe/tubing when steam injecting for cooking or stilling .Only talking about small amount of pressure. I feel safe enough using it . I hold my short column down to the keg that I use for injecting or when using thumper with springs .Using fish scales springs and wire I played with tension till I had 10 lbs tension on it. Its worked for me for years .Never had any problems .

[King Of Hearts]

Food pressure cookers or canners go up to 15 psi and have settings for 5, 10 & 15 and have a safety valve. They are made from Al or SS. I'm sure there are used ones in thrift shops or flee markets collecting dust that can be had for next to nothing.

[myles]

+1
Plenty of steam engines and steam boilers use copper piping. Heavy wall (e.g. 54 x 2mm as opposed to standard 54 x 1.2mm) tube can even be used on presurised steam applications up to 205 degC.

My steam rig uses low pressure steam, standard copper tube, and the joints were brazed with 56% silver solder, although that was probably not neccesary.

[King Of Hearts]

Can Copper Tube Be Used in Steam and Steam Condensate Piping Systems?

http://www.copper.org/applications/plum ... stems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[myles]

There is one point worth mentioning - not so much a problem as something to be aware of. When brazing joints in copper tube you also end up annealing the tube. This makes the tube soft and it can be possible for it to bend when you don't want it to. It may be neccesary to support the tube.

As I said a minor issue, but one to be aware of.

[King Of Hearts]

Also wet steam would add volume to the still boiler. 15%? But your also removing volume in alcohol so it might cancel out. I guess one way to check would be just have the injector go into a pot of water and check the volume of the boiler and pot after a set temp, maybe when full boil.

[DIYhooch]

Very interesting reading, some great info, really glad I started this thread.

I am starting to form together plans in my head, on my current rig that I want to try steam injection on the column is a packed 3" column with about 3 feet of packing on a 30 gal pot, I was thinking of using 3/4" tubing for the steam injection (is this too small? just I have a heap of it available) with a steam wand (thanks for the image myles, very informative) on the end of it as close to the bottom as possible. As suggested I will have a 3 way valve (t-port type, so no chance of shutting it off.........boom) to divert flow of steam either to a vented port a couple meters off the ground (ty for the idea btw Prairiepiss) or to the still, this way I can also check mid run to make sure there is still water in my boiler by opening the vent to see if steam comes out, at least for the first couple of runs to reassure myself that the water boiler is big enough to complete a run.

I was going to use a converted 16 gallon keg as the water boiler to run the 30 gallon alcohol boiler/still, (I would like it a little bigger but it is all I have available at the moment).

Thoughts?

Thanks,
DIY

[Tater]

When I'm using steam to cook grain I first get water in barrel to cooking temp with fire/propane .Ad grain stir in Then use steam to cook.

[myles]

I would not botther with a 3 way valve at all. You don't need any sort of valve on your steam output line. Instead you have a vent to atmosphere line that does have a valve. With that valve open the steam goes straight to atmosphere and not into your kettle. When you close the valve you get a slight pressure increase and then the steam blasts out into your mash or wash. If you get to the temperature you want and do not need any more steam just open the valve and purge the steam.

Might be a good idea to vent it outside or your still room becomes a sauna.

[King Of Hearts]

DIYhooch, did you make that boiler or re purpose it? I bet 3/4 pipe is plenty.

[DIYhooch]

The boiler I plan to use is just a stainless steel beer keg 16gal I have lying around doing nothing, I know the aren't designed for direct heating but have used them in the past with no problems and I figure with steam injection you aren't dealing with pressures anything like those involved in a closed circulating steam type system.

The 3 way valve is a bit unnecessary I know but I have one lying around and I like having valves on everything.

I was also thinking of running a coil of 3/4" copper pipe through the water boiler and pumping my wash through the water boiler to pre-heat it as I pump it into the still (since I use a small food safe pump anyway because I grew really tired of siphoning my wash a while ago, well it wasn't so much the siphoning but lifting the full fermenter up high enough that I got tired of). Seems like the perfect way to use less steam. I will heat up the water boiler first then pump my wash through it once it is getting close to boiling but not quite. I have a tig welder so I can make pretty much whatever I like.

My water boiler (and the vent) will be outside heated by wood and the still inside, the whole reason I am keen to give this a try is I can have the water boiler outside and the still inside since I run everything off wood fire and have previously been relegated outside with a double boiler/bain marie type setup.

Myles: Is your steam wand open at the end or closed I can't really see in any of the photos, in one it kind of looks rounded off at the end with a few hole drilled in it.

Thanks,
DIY

[King Of Hearts]

Sorry DIY, I meant your still boiler, the 30 gal, did you build that or find something?

[Prairiepiss]

Might be a good idea to vent it outside or your still room becomes a sauna.

I've seen where people have added a liebig condenser to the vent. So they can knock the steam back down into the boiler. Kinda like a reflux still. Less steam in the cooking area/room.

[DIYhooch]

Sorry DIY, I meant your still boiler, the 30 gal, did you build that or find something?

That is a gigantic stainless steel cooking pot, if you actually used it for cooking you could feed an army with it. I lucked out and found it at a scrap yard (amazingly still had its lid) and I just had to pay scrap metal price for it (ie per pound, still wasn't exactly free because it isn't very light but damn I would hate to think how much it would cost new).

It is marked 18/10 which I think is similar to 304 grade stainless. I have been using it as the outer container to hold water in my current double boiler setup, with a 16gal beer keg mounted in it. But I sometimes find 16gal keg to be a little too small and have been wanting for a while to use the 30gal pot as the alcohol still since that will be plenty big enough for anything I want to do, but up until now didn't know how I was going to power it since I use wood fire and didn't want to burn the contents as I have in the past using direct flame on a stainless still (why I went to a double boiler setup).

Steam injection sounds like the perfect thing for my situation, really cant wait to try it.

DIY

[DIYhooch]

Hi everyone,

Things are coming along ok, I am up to making the steam wand, I am trying to work out what size holes and how many to put in this 3/4" copper tube for the steam wand. The wand comes in through the top of the pot (through the lid) then has a 90deg bend just before it hits the bottom and runs along the bottom of the pot (about 1/8" off the bottom, it doesn't actually sit on the bottom) I was only going to drill holes in the part of the tube that runs along the bottom of the pot and have them pointing horizontally out either side of the steam wand rather than have any pointing up as I thought this would work best especially towards the end of the run if fluid levels inside the pot are getting down a bit, since I often wont use the whole capacity of the big 30gal pot.

I was thinking of putting 1/4" holes every inch or is that way too big?, the wand is about 16" long total. I was also thinking, to get even dispersal of steam across the bottom of the pot should the holes start off a bit smaller and get bigger towards the end of the steam wand to even up the way the steam is injected?

I have had a search and couldn't really find any specifics about steam wand hole sizing, apart from the information Myles posted earlier in this thread.

Thanks,
DIY

[King Of Hearts]

Hi everyone,

Things are coming along ok, I am up to making the steam wand, I am trying to work out what size holes and how many to put in this 3/4" copper tube for the steam wand. The wand comes in through the top of the pot (through the lid) then has a 90deg bend just before it hits the bottom and runs along the bottom of the pot (about 1/8" off the bottom, it doesn't actually sit on the bottom) I was only going to drill holes in the part of the tube that runs along the bottom of the pot and have them pointing horizontally out either side of the steam wand rather than have any pointing up as I thought this would work best especially towards the end of the run if fluid levels inside the pot are getting down a bit, since I often wont use the whole capacity of the big 30gal pot.

I was thinking of putting 1/4" holes every inch or is that way too big?, the wand is about 16" long total. I was also thinking, to get even dispersal of steam across the bottom of the pot should the holes start off a bit smaller and get bigger towards the end of the steam wand to even up the way the steam is injected?

I have had a search and couldn't really find any specifics about steam wand hole sizing, apart from the information Myles posted earlier in this thread.

Thanks,
DIY

For a half barrel keg I would put a 1/2 pipe with 3/32 or .093 holes staggered on each side and on top and bottom about every 1/2 inch. I would also put it higher off the bottom maybe 6-8 inches.

[DIYhooch]

I found this page on the same site that Myles posted earlier in this thread, this page talks specifically about steam injection: http://www.spiraxsarco.com/resources/st ... ection.asp

It suggests putting the holes in the sparge pipe at 4 and 8 o'clock looking at the end of the pipe (ie facing sort of downwards, check out the link there is a pic that explains it better). I am going to mount the pipe 4" from the bottom as I often do small test batches and don't want to risk not having the sparge pipe fully submerged. I am going to drill a hole right at the end of the sparge pipe pointing directly down ("6 o'clock") so that when the pot is empty all the liquid drains out of the sparge pipe as well.

Annoyingly the page doesn't address the mathematics of sizing the holes in the sparge pipe.

I also had some spare copper coil and wound a coil that I welded (well tig brazed) inside the keg water boiler, I will pump my wash through this coil on its way to the pot to pre-heat it before distilling, that way even if I run a full 30gal in the main pot I know I wont run out of steam to complete the run since the charge will be pre-heated and I won't have to waste steam heating it from cold.

DIY

[DIYhooch]

Ok well I found what I was looking for, a paper dealing purely with sparge pipe hole sizing and spacing (it even looks at ring type spargers), haha too bad it will now put my project back several days trying to get to grips with what is going on.......http://144.206.159.178/ft/157/601349/12518270.pdf

[mash rookie]

Ok well I found what I was looking for, a paper dealing purely with sparge pipe hole sizing and spacing (it even looks at ring type spargers), haha too bad it will now put my project back several days trying to get to grips with what is going on.......http://144.206.159.178/ft/157/601349/12518270.pdf

Doesn’t that just freakin kill ya? Just when you are looking for a straight answer, Think you found what you are looking for? only to have to head back to the damn calculator and note pad. Hang in there. We are paying attention.

[DIYhooch]

Hi guys,

Sorry things got a little busy for me, I ended up going for 3/32" holes spaced 11/16" apart running along the 17" long 3/4" sparge pipe at the "4 o'clock" and "8 o'clock" positions. This gives 47 holes total, 24 one side, 23 the other (because I offset the holes one side to the other to increase the distance between them).

This gives a cross-sectional ratio of just over 1:1 (total cross section little holes:cross section sparge pipe).

The open end I put a cap on and tig brazed it with SiBr (silicone bronze) rod.

I also drilled one 1/16" hole at the "6 o'clock" position (ie straight down) to make sure no liquid stayed in the sparge pipe once a run is complete. It is about 2" from the capped end of the sparge pipe.

Very eager to see how it works.

DIY