Steam distillation
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Re: Steam distillation
The point in building one of these generators is faster warm up time and less overall energy used due to not having 8 gallons of boiling water left unused in the boiler at the end.
The point in just running the boiler is simplicity. My boiler is already built and I have a nice controller set up to regulate it.
Maybe I'll build one one day. For now I have enough projects.
The point in just running the boiler is simplicity. My boiler is already built and I have a nice controller set up to regulate it.
Maybe I'll build one one day. For now I have enough projects.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
- S-Cackalacky
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Re: Steam distillation
Laz, maybe I wasn't clear on the point I was trying to make. I was looking more for practical, common sense kind of real world observations. For instance, I read about using a thumper and how to size it to your boiler. The thumper will gain X amount of liquid during the course of a run. The assumption can be made that the liquid gained in the thumper came from the boiler. Now, if I have a 1/2 keg boiler and a 1/2 keg thumper and I charge the thumper with 10 gallons of wash and the boiler with 12 gallons of water, I wonder how much of the water will be used in the boiler to extract most all of the good alcohol from the wash in the thumper. I assume it wouldn't take 12 gallons of water converted to steam to do the job. So, my point is - why would you want to design and implement some apparatus to adjust the level of water in the boiler if it's not necessary? I would think that the bigger concern would be how much liquid volume is being gained in the thumper - that is, what should be the maximum beginning charge in the thumper?Lazarus Long wrote:No system we design is going to be 100% efficient, therefore I think one could calculate the amount of water to be boiled off based on the energy input with respect to time. Whatever is calculated will be a larger number than what actually is evaporated as steam because of the inherent system losses. Of course, if you run an internal element you would get closer to your theoretical number than someone that is cooking on a Natural gas burner (more source energy lost to the atmosphere than an internal element).S-Cackalacky wrote:Does anyone here have any experience with the simple steam injection method? I'm wondering about how much the water level drops in the boiler from start to finish of a run. That is, is there a real concern about having to replenish the water in the boiler during a run? Or, is it just a matter of assuring that you have a good level of water at the beginning of the run, so that you're not exposing your element or running dry?
Posted while Brutal was posting.
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Re: Steam distillation
I'm not concerned with that. I use X amount of energy to make a run as it is. If anything, that 8 gallons of hot water is a plus if there's some way you want to use it. I would suggest that if the steam distillation uses any more energy than would be used for a traditional run, the benefit of the extra energy expense would be an unscorched on-the-grain distillation.Brutal wrote:The point in building one of these generators is faster warm up time and less overall energy used due to not having 8 gallons of boiling water left unused in the boiler at the end.
The point in just running the boiler is simplicity. My boiler is already built and I have a nice controller set up to regulate it.
Maybe I'll build one one day. For now I have enough projects.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
Re: Steam distillation
Actually for smaller boilers of the sort favoured on this forum, the batch process works just fine. You only really need this style of steam generator for bigger boilers when it does make sense to generate the steam on demand. Just for the reduced warm up time if for nothing else.
Using direct steam injection for distilling a wash results in your boiler charge increasing in volume during warm up. You can calculate how much fairly easily. From that point onwards the volume stays fairly constant. You put in about a litres worth of water as steam for each litre of product.
A 50 litre keg of water should be able to distill a 100 litres of wash with some safety margin. If you are using a much bigger strip boiler this might not be the correct forum to discuss it.
Using direct steam injection for distilling a wash results in your boiler charge increasing in volume during warm up. You can calculate how much fairly easily. From that point onwards the volume stays fairly constant. You put in about a litres worth of water as steam for each litre of product.
A 50 litre keg of water should be able to distill a 100 litres of wash with some safety margin. If you are using a much bigger strip boiler this might not be the correct forum to discuss it.
Re: Steam distillation
Oh yeah SC I'm not worried about it. Just pointing out potential wasted energy. If I was doing this on a larger scale it could very well make a difference. To boil a 1500 gallon tank would add apx 225+ gallons to the tank and using a boiling tank large enough for that would be significantly wasteful. For my small scale stuff at home it doesn't seem like a big deal at all.
I'm going to strip in my 15.5 thumper soon and I'll measure all the volumes before and after so I can share them here. If I end up with a puke from over filling it's just a strip run anyway. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Posting same time an Myles
I'm going to strip in my 15.5 thumper soon and I'll measure all the volumes before and after so I can share them here. If I end up with a puke from over filling it's just a strip run anyway. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Posting same time an Myles
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
Re: Steam distillation
+1shadylane wrote:DeepSouth
I'm interested in any words of wisdom you can supply.
Also, will you please post more info on the particular impeller pump youre using, thanks Deepsouth. Good stuff. Steam injection, or a steam heated jacketed boiler, or even a simple water bath boiler (filled with glycol?) are the way to go. Im tired of seperating gunk from my mash, and settling for days, to make a clear wash that wont scorch!
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
Re: Steam distillation
I actually ground 20 pounds of grain last night for a bourbon mash I plan to make tomorrow. I just got a new GoPro camera for Christmas as well as the head mount. Maybe I'll wear the camera and make a few short videos of my setup and how I use steam injection for mashing and distilling. I can show details of the equipment I use. I have some video editing software so I could probably splice together all the different steps into a concise video.
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Re: Steam distillation
Yes!DeepSouth wrote:Maybe I'll wear the camera and make a few short videos of my setup and how I use steam injection for mashing and distilling. I can show details of the equipment I use. I have some video editing software so I could probably splice together all the different steps into a concise video.
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Re: Steam distillation
In response to the wasted energy of using a large tank and boiling off without makeup water, the only wasted energy is the energy associated with the temperature change of the water left in the pot, and on our scale of things, this is so miniscule as to not even really matter. If your steam generator has 5 gallons of water left in the tank at the end of your run, your wasted energy was the energy required to bring that 5 gallons of water from room temperature to a boil. To put this in perspective, 5 gallons of water weighs 41.7 lbs. 1 BTU is the energy required to raise one pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit. So, if I heat 5 gallons of water from 70 F to 212 F, I will need 5921 BTU to do so. Converting between BTU and kWh, the energy required that would be wasted in this process is about 1.7 kWh. Let's round up and call it an energy waste of 2 kWH. Based on my electric rates, I have wasted less than a whopping 20 cents worth of electricity. For me, an on demand steam generator would save me maybe 30-45 minutes of heat up time, and about $0.20 per distillation run and $0.20 for mashing. Being a hobby, everything doesn't have to be economical after all though and half the fun for some folks is building and tinkering. I like the idea of on demand, and may build one when time permits.
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Re: Steam distillation
excellent analysis.DeepSouth wrote:In response to the wasted energy of using a large tank and boiling off without makeup water, the only wasted energy is the energy associated with the temperature change of the water left in the pot, and on our scale of things, this is so miniscule as to not even really matter. If your steam generator has 5 gallons of water left in the tank at the end of your run, your wasted energy was the energy required to bring that 5 gallons of water from room temperature to a boil. To put this in perspective, 5 gallons of water weighs 41.7 lbs. 1 BTU is the energy required to raise one pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit. So, if I heat 5 gallons of water from 70 F to 212 F, I will need 5921 BTU to do so. Converting between BTU and kWh, the energy required that would be wasted in this process is about 1.7 kWh. Let's round up and call it an energy waste of 2 kWH. Based on my electric rates, I have wasted less than a whopping 20 cents worth of electricity. For me, an on demand steam generator would save me maybe 30-45 minutes of heat up time, and about $0.20 per distillation run and $0.20 for mashing. Being a hobby, everything doesn't have to be economical after all though and half the fun for some folks is building and tinkering. I like the idea of on demand, and may build one when time permits.
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My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
There are times when you have to build something just for the fun of learning how.
You might not learn what the right way was, but you'll damn sure learn a couple of the wrong ways.
You might not learn what the right way was, but you'll damn sure learn a couple of the wrong ways.
- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
Here's another plan.
Use the same probe, controller and valve
But put them in a separate chamber.
Use the same probe, controller and valve
But put them in a separate chamber.
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- Edwin Croissant
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Re: Steam distillation
Couldn't fall asleep and had a brain fart.
Maybe you can use a dishwasher flow-through heater, these things are approximately 200 mm long with a diameter between 30 and 40 mm. rating is about 2kW. Heating element seems to be on the outside. Maybe the tube temperature on the discharge side can be used as a control signal, if the temperature goes above 110 C you need more water.
Another possible use is to circulate the wash through the heater with a ss model boat propeller.
Edit: changed picture size.
Maybe you can use a dishwasher flow-through heater, these things are approximately 200 mm long with a diameter between 30 and 40 mm. rating is about 2kW. Heating element seems to be on the outside. Maybe the tube temperature on the discharge side can be used as a control signal, if the temperature goes above 110 C you need more water.
Another possible use is to circulate the wash through the heater with a ss model boat propeller.
Edit: changed picture size.
Last edited by Edwin Croissant on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Steam distillation
Now that would be awesome for a mash tun.
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- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
I don't think that would work for what I'm trying to do at the moment, but I can think of a couple other uses for it.
Right now I'm waiting for the weather to warm up enough, for the garden hose to thaw out.
When it does, the steam distillation will begin.
For now, I'll be using two kegs. One for the steam and the other for the mash.
There's a 30+ gallon batch of 80% corn and 20% unmalted barley that's done and waiting.
posting with Tokoroa_Shiner
Good thought about using it as a mash tum heater.
Right now I'm waiting for the weather to warm up enough, for the garden hose to thaw out.
When it does, the steam distillation will begin.
For now, I'll be using two kegs. One for the steam and the other for the mash.
There's a 30+ gallon batch of 80% corn and 20% unmalted barley that's done and waiting.
posting with Tokoroa_Shiner
Good thought about using it as a mash tum heater.
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Re: Steam distillation
Found several different models of those on ebay. Not terribly expensive either. A link - http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... r&_sacat=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow .
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Re: Steam distillation
I have and old dishwasher in my garage that I haven't bothered to throw out. Now I know why haha
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- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
A side note before I forget.
My friend, Bubba suggested spaying water on the electric heating element to use it as a flash boiler.
What can I say, with a shop full of drunken farm boys, there's some out of the box ideas.
For now, back to possible uses of a dish washer heater.
My friend, Bubba suggested spaying water on the electric heating element to use it as a flash boiler.
What can I say, with a shop full of drunken farm boys, there's some out of the box ideas.
For now, back to possible uses of a dish washer heater.
Re: Steam distillation
Whereas I can see the fun in building a rapid-start steam generator, for distilling, I can't see the point. When steam distilling,the problem is pumping enough energy into your ferment to distill off the alcohol. If you start the steam early, then add cold water to your steam generator later you start sooner but still have to heat the water you add, so dont change the end point. The only loss is the hot water over at the end. That said if you are using rapid steam for heating the grain for a mash then it might be useful. But it still sounds like an interesting challenge. Has anyone tried pulling a milk frother apart to see how they do it?
There is a parallel thread on this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7206614
The water boiled to do a steam distillation is probably half the volume of the ferment. I overfill the steam generator and tend not to worry.
When I'm doing a second distillation, I turn off when the distillate is about 40%. The remaining liquid can be used in the steam stripping step for the next batch. Saves energy, and all those grainy tails flavors get a second chance.
There is a parallel thread on this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7206614
The water boiled to do a steam distillation is probably half the volume of the ferment. I overfill the steam generator and tend not to worry.
When I'm doing a second distillation, I turn off when the distillate is about 40%. The remaining liquid can be used in the steam stripping step for the next batch. Saves energy, and all those grainy tails flavors get a second chance.
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Re: Steam distillation
When you use a couple of meters DN12 corrugated tubing as a heat exchanger in the boiler you can combine the flow-through heater with a solar circulation pump and some heating parts (expansion tank, pressure switch, temperature switch etc) into a heating system for the wash. 5 meters of DN12 give you a surface area of 0,39 m2. You need to pressurize the system at least 2 bar (3 bar absolute pressure) if you use water as circulation fluid. Instead of the heater you might be able to use solar vacuum tubes as heating source ( tax deduction? ).
Does anyone know the equations that drive the condenser calculator on the parent site? I want to make the same type of calculator for evaporation instead of condensing.
Does anyone know the equations that drive the condenser calculator on the parent site? I want to make the same type of calculator for evaporation instead of condensing.
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- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
Just started a steam run.
Estimated 13.5 gallons of corn/barley mash in the thumper and 14.5 gallons of water in the boiler.
Just closed the vent valve and the thumper is making sounds it never has before.
Shake rattle and roll baby, 10 years ago I'd have shut it down and run.
Manometer is bouncing between 16 and 19 inches of water pressure.
Estimated 13.5 gallons of corn/barley mash in the thumper and 14.5 gallons of water in the boiler.
Just closed the vent valve and the thumper is making sounds it never has before.
Shake rattle and roll baby, 10 years ago I'd have shut it down and run.
Manometer is bouncing between 16 and 19 inches of water pressure.
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Re: Steam distillation
Thumper drama has ended, It's now making a steady almost purring sound.
The fan on the controller is making more noise.
4.5kw and 17" water pressure, no leaks, Yet
I'm out in the unheated shop with the lap top.
The fan on the controller is making more noise.
4.5kw and 17" water pressure, no leaks, Yet
I'm out in the unheated shop with the lap top.
Re: Steam distillation
Yeah the noise changes as the temperature differential changes. When the mash is cold, and the steam bubbles collapse, it is pretty loud and the sound gradually decreases as the mash warms up.
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Re: Steam distillation
Paints quite a picture, Shadylane, good luck with the run!shadylane wrote:I'm out in the unheated shop with the lap top.
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
Re: Steam distillation
Shady we think so much alike its funny. I was going to start with 13 gallons in the secondary. I consider that "pushing it" for a 15.5g secondary, so you start with 13.5 lol. I would have started with less in the primary boiler just because I don't think that much will be used, and it would heat up faster.
I may or may not get a run in this weekend. There are still some bubbles coming from my sticky mash I want to strip on the grain. I also need to do a spirit run on some all corn. It's damn cold out there though, and I am exhausted from the last few weeks.
Got my mop bucket in too. Might not strip on the grain after all but I'll still be running it in the thumper.
Good luck with your run buddy!
I may or may not get a run in this weekend. There are still some bubbles coming from my sticky mash I want to strip on the grain. I also need to do a spirit run on some all corn. It's damn cold out there though, and I am exhausted from the last few weeks.
Got my mop bucket in too. Might not strip on the grain after all but I'll still be running it in the thumper.
Good luck with your run buddy!
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
Re: Steam distillation
Just started mashing a bourbon batch and am filming the process with my GoPro. I'll link a video sometime soon. Hopefully the audio turns out good. I'm trying to narrate the process as well as capture the noise associated with steam injection.
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- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
The thumper is definitely filling with condensed steam faster than the distillate is coming out.
Just under 1 gallon an hour out and its filling at a rate of 1.6 gal per hour. Not what I was expecting.
Don't know what the water level in the boiler is, but it's been blowing steam for 3:20
In another hour or so, I'll flip the switch off, remove the fill plug and measure it with a stick.
Just sampled the distillate
posting at the same time as brutal and deepsouth
Edited the boiler was steaming for 2:20 not 3:20
Just under 1 gallon an hour out and its filling at a rate of 1.6 gal per hour. Not what I was expecting.
Don't know what the water level in the boiler is, but it's been blowing steam for 3:20
In another hour or so, I'll flip the switch off, remove the fill plug and measure it with a stick.
Just sampled the distillate
posting at the same time as brutal and deepsouth
Edited the boiler was steaming for 2:20 not 3:20
Last edited by shadylane on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
I obviously had less than 13.5 gallons in the thumper at the start.
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Re: Steam distillation
Truckinbutch has been doing something similar for awhile now. He uses a 15.5G keg boiler and a 15.5G thumper and charges the thumper with wash to extend the amount of wash he can strip. He very recently started a thread about it - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... ead#unread . I guess the most interesting thing about his post is the charge amounts he has settled on. I would imagine that those amounts would pretty much hold true for a pure steam distillation as well.
I think it's great that this method is coming to the forefront here lately. It solves a lot of problems related to working with grain/fruit washes. At the very least it's a big labor saver.
I think it's great that this method is coming to the forefront here lately. It solves a lot of problems related to working with grain/fruit washes. At the very least it's a big labor saver.
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- shadylane
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Re: Steam distillation
Ended the run and here are some rough numbers.
"estimated" 13.5 still charge made from 80% corn 20% un-malted barley, converted with enzymes at 1.7Lb per gallon
4.5kw Boiler used 6.5 gallons of water in 4:15
It took 2:10 to bring the thumper to boil.
After that, the steamer still delivered 2.1 gallons at 29% abv in 2:05
The thumper slowly filled even after it was boiling.
The distillate never had the normal heads, hearts, tails flavor change ?
Ended the run at 211.5 vapor temp on my walmart thermometer. Corn flavored water was coming out.
I have the other half of the ferment to run tomorrow.
I'll try to be more accurate.
posting with S-Clack
"estimated" 13.5 still charge made from 80% corn 20% un-malted barley, converted with enzymes at 1.7Lb per gallon
4.5kw Boiler used 6.5 gallons of water in 4:15
It took 2:10 to bring the thumper to boil.
After that, the steamer still delivered 2.1 gallons at 29% abv in 2:05
The thumper slowly filled even after it was boiling.
The distillate never had the normal heads, hearts, tails flavor change ?
Ended the run at 211.5 vapor temp on my walmart thermometer. Corn flavored water was coming out.
I have the other half of the ferment to run tomorrow.
I'll try to be more accurate.
posting with S-Clack