Wood fired steam boiler?

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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by Prairiepiss »

I mean I guess I could feed it with my big tank I’m wanting to use for the steam boiler. And it would keep the need of it being sealed and or pressurized at any point. I might could work with this. Controlling the flame would still be a challenge.

What size tube would be needed?
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by Yummyrum »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:02 pm I'd use SS tubing for this one.
Why Shady ?

BTW , I’m interested on this topic as I’ve been toying with a gas fired steam generator . Thankyou and PP for the conversation . Sorry I got not much to add .
Prairiepiss wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:08 pm I am going to plumb a one inch takeoff at the bottom just for still cooling. And a return line to the upper portion of the tank. So that I can just circulate my cooling water. And not use up my water source. Because this tank will be my supply for all my house water needs.
PP , I’m on tank water (22,000L ) and I was recycling water from my still back into it. . But over Summer tank water got quite warm an caused health issues with family members . Had to dump water and now have dedicated tank for still'n . Maybe with buried tank and bigger , you might be OK ... just my bad experience I’m passing on .
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by shadylane »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:17 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:02 pm I'd use SS tubing for this one.
Why Shady ?
Protection from dry firing.
Don't want a $100 puddle of copper laying in the boiler
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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PP are you thinking about a closed system like this
Closed system.png
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by shadylane »

Here's another possible idea
jacket boiler.png
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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No not thinking about a closed system. I would like to collect the water from the system as distilled water. So more then likely I will be using all stainless for the steam system. Except for maybe the mash ton. Where I won’t be collecting the water because it will be an injection system. I don’t like the taste and smell of distilled water off copper.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by shadylane »

Maybe something like this
Closed system.png
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by The Baker »

Very interesting, prairiepiss.

There are a lot of articles and videos that would be helpful.
Dunno the words you would look for on the web or in this resource.
Maybe the names of the spirits often produced in wood fired boilers.
Typically fruit ferments in European countries.

But they use a fairly simple wood fire under the boiler; it has stuff like a grate and a damper and a flue and a fire door with an adjustable air inlet.
And the heat under the boiler is controlled with among other things a spade.
If the fire is low add wood.
If it is high you can maybe remove coals with the spade; or adjust the airflow.

They keep it simple.

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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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these guys have a wood fired rig. maybe you can learn something here. https://ironworksdistillery.com/
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by SassyFrass »

Just my $.02, but a hard garden rake works better than a spade or a shovel to move your coals where you need them in wood fired stuff. And you really want a long handle to reach into the back of the furnace.
You could always build furnace around your boiler and use a 55 gallon metal drum as a side fired heat source. Look at some of the old wood fired stills. Popcorn's video has a good example. I'm not sure if it would be practical for this application but it worked well back in the day for other stuff.
However you do it, dont neglect the air inlet and your chimney. Hard to keep a good fire without those.

PS...very interesting thread. I had to comment just so I could keep up with it. Good luck PP.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Ok just so everyone is on the same page here.

I do not want to have a fire under my still boiler. That is out of the question. This is why I am looking at using steam to heat the boiler. Where the still boiler would be inside a building and the wood fired steam boiler would be outside the building. That is the requirement. And I am not waving from it. Again I am not going to build a still boiler with a fire under it. Just not going to happen.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by shadylane »

What about a heat transfer fluid other than water?
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by LWTCS »

Shady your modeling skills are coming along fantastically :lol:

The thing is PP, unless you/they/we are doing live steam injection, those systems Shady illustrated are not the most efficient modality for delivering heat when using an open flame. The open flame is.
Adding extra steps simply prolongs heat up times.
The benefit of steam (beyond live steam injection or a straight up flame under your kettle) is that you can pipe it to multiple pieces of equipment. But to add a steam generator just a few feet away from a single jacketed kettle or coil is only an exercise to just see if you can do it.

To use an open flame to create steam for a single kettle doesn't accomplish anything. Sure it can safeguard against reckless scorching but so can a well designed kettle. Also the steam jacketed kettle doesn't allow for the fabled maillard reaction that can be achieved when using an open flame.

You're better off designing a concaved or coned kettle bottom, and/or a good firebox.
EDIT: Ah I see. Fire too spooky then?
Fire Box.png
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Not to spooky. Just wanted to have the still inside. And fire outside. So I don’t have to build some ungodly firebox around the still. And not be able to move it around. If I wanted too.

The steam will be used in two pieces of equipment. The still and the mashton.

My still boiler would be easy to setup as steam injection. Really all I would have to do is hook up a 2” triclamp steam line to an existing port. But after reading around a little. My concerns are running reflux in steam injection. And what the outcome will be. But more then likely I will try it and see. I will be able to do a few test runs with my electric boiler as a steam boiler. I just don’t want to do that all the time. And it won’t be big enough I don’t think.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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shadylane wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:26 am Maybe something like this
image.png
image.png (18.18 KiB) Viewed 2398 times
Thinking out loud. You asked about a way to control the heat. Do they make PRV valves that electrically indicate they are open? You could use such a PRV to run a fan to control how much air you blow on the fire. Valve closed, more air. Valve open, less air. I had a BBQ controller that did that. A certain amount of air would always move through the firebox but the fan would kick on a bit if the temp dropped.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by Yummyrum »

Shady , I was wondering about the two valves in the pic above . Looks to me as potentially dangerous if the coil is full of water and both valves are closed . Thank goodness for the PRV .
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by shadylane »

I don't much care for the idea myself.

At least with a monotube boiler if there is a failure.
The explosion is small, and it would put out it's own fire.
If it were a fire tube boiler, there would be a major catastrophic explosion.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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jward wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:40 am
shadylane wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:26 am Maybe something like this

image.png
Thinking out loud. You asked about a way to control the heat. Do they make PRV valves that electrically indicate they are open? You could use such a PRV to run a fan to control how much air you blow on the fire. Valve closed, more air. Valve open, less air. I had a BBQ controller that did that. A certain amount of air would always move through the firebox but the fan would kick on a bit if the temp dropped.
I can get a draft fan. I already have one ready to be ordered for my outside wood boiler for house heat. But the problem is what temp do you use to control it. Because the water will be boiling. So the heat will stay 212. If it drops below that it’s not boiling anymore. So you ain’t getting steam to the still and it will shut down. And the steam will be steam. So it’s temp won’t change either. I’m just not sure how to regulate a wood fire for this application. Because you can’t have temp swings like a house heating boiler would. You need to be able to control how much steam is being produced. And keep it at a steady pace. :crazy:
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by Yummyrum »

PP
I’ve seen coal fired steam boilers used to heat houses in New Zealand . The coal is feed to the fire with a spiral wormmy thing .

Iff’n you are burning wood , could you have a feed mechanism that feeds logs ( of a fairly constant size ) slowly into the fire .
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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M
Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:06 pm PP
I’ve seen coal fired steam boilers used to heat houses in New Zealand . The coal is feed to the fire with a spiral wormmy thing .

Iff’n you are burning wood , could you have a feed mechanism that feeds logs ( of a fairly constant size ) slowly into the fire .
Maybe. But it wouldn’t really control the burn rate. Or how much heat is putting into the boiler.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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I’m guessing you are looking for a sensor that can control the fan speed ??
And if fire needs Oxygen and fuel , both need to be fed in at a controlled rate .

Would the temp of the exhaust gases from the fire be a Relative measure of the Heat for the fire and therefore heat into boiler . ?
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:19 pm I’m guessing you are looking for a sensor that can control the fan speed ??
And if fire needs Oxygen and fuel , both need to be fed in at a controlled rate .

Would the temp of the exhaust gases from the fire be a Relative measure of the Heat for the fire and therefore heat into boiler . ?
That I could possibly work with. If I could find a high temp temp probe and a pid. That could handle those temps. It would take some experiments to get the temp settings right. But it would be measuring basically how many btu the fire was putting out.

I would most likely have to hand load the wood. But the fire box I am thinking of building. Will be or should be large enough I could get through a cook without needing to fill it back up. Or at least fill it for the boiler heat up. Then fill it up again before the actual run.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Prairiepiss wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:58 pm
jward wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:40 am Thinking out loud. You asked about a way to control the heat. Do they make PRV valves that electrically indicate they are open? You could use such a PRV to run a fan to control how much air you blow on the fire. Valve closed, more air. Valve open, less air. I had a BBQ controller that did that. A certain amount of air would always move through the firebox but the fan would kick on a bit if the temp dropped.
I can get a draft fan. I already have one ready to be ordered for my outside wood boiler for house heat. But the problem is what temp do you use to control it. Because the water will be boiling. So the heat will stay 212. If it drops below that it’s not boiling anymore. So you ain’t getting steam to the still and it will shut down. And the steam will be steam. So it’s temp won’t change either. I’m just not sure how to regulate a wood fire for this application. Because you can’t have temp swings like a house heating boiler would. You need to be able to control how much steam is being produced. And keep it at a steady pace. :crazy:
In my thought process you wouldn't use temp. You would use the PRV to let you know the boil was sufficient to open the PRV and provide steam to the kettle. Thinking about this you might have good luck with the right firebox design. Using a Big Green Egg smoker that sucker would hold rock solid by setting the air intake. You could probably dial in the boil rate by manually controlling the air flow.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by Prairiepiss »

jward wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:42 pm
Prairiepiss wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:58 pm
jward wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:40 am Thinking out loud. You asked about a way to control the heat. Do they make PRV valves that electrically indicate they are open? You could use such a PRV to run a fan to control how much air you blow on the fire. Valve closed, more air. Valve open, less air. I had a BBQ controller that did that. A certain amount of air would always move through the firebox but the fan would kick on a bit if the temp dropped.
I can get a draft fan. I already have one ready to be ordered for my outside wood boiler for house heat. But the problem is what temp do you use to control it. Because the water will be boiling. So the heat will stay 212. If it drops below that it’s not boiling anymore. So you ain’t getting steam to the still and it will shut down. And the steam will be steam. So it’s temp won’t change either. I’m just not sure how to regulate a wood fire for this application. Because you can’t have temp swings like a house heating boiler would. You need to be able to control how much steam is being produced. And keep it at a steady pace. :crazy:
In my thought process you wouldn't use temp. You would use the PRV to let you know the boil was sufficient to open the PRV and provide steam to the kettle. Thinking about this you might have good luck with the right firebox design. Using a Big Green Egg smoker that sucker would hold rock solid by setting the air intake. You could probably dial in the boil rate by manually controlling the air flow.
Use the temp of what? The water in the steam boiler will be 212 the whole time. It can’t get any hotter. Unless pressure builds up. And we don’t really want that. And if it gets colder it is no longer producing steam. Which is the hole point of it.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Prairiepiss wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:32 am Ok just so everyone is on the same page here.

I do not want to have a fire under my still boiler. That is out of the question. This is why I am looking at using steam to heat the boiler. Where the still boiler would be inside a building and the wood fired steam boiler would be outside the building. That is the requirement. And I am not waving from it. Again I am not going to build a still boiler with a fire under it. Just not going to happen.
We visited a family in Japan.
They had, of course, a Japanese style bath.
Square, not very wide but very deep.
The idea is you can sink in the water to your neck. (Not standing of course...) Bloody hot, it's almost painful to MOVE in the water.
But I really liked it. If I were building a new house...

Anyway it was heated with a wood fire outside the house.
Sounds like what you want.

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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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I hope I am not speaking put of turn for PP , but I understand that the issue he has is that he needs some sort of automation or regulation of the fire outside so it burns at a constant rate so that the steam he will use inside at the still where he will be , will be feed a relatively constant amount of heat . .... we all know that a still should not have a hugely varying amount of heat .

He therefore needs something to monitor that can be used as a means of controlling the fire rate . The temperature of the water or the steam is of no use as it will always be the same regardless of how hard the fire is burning . IE 100°C

Pressure could be an option , but he does not want the steam to be running at more than atmospheric pressure for safety reasons .

Hope I’m on the same page PP
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

Post by NJen »

When burning with wood to get a stable temperature and clean burn it is 100% about air and pressure. All the leading combustion controllers for outdoor wood boilers, for example, measure and control air flow to extend efficiency.
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:11 pm he needs some sort of automation or regulation of the fire outside so it burns at a constant rate
If the fire can't be regulated accurately.
Then regulate the amount heat getting from the fire to the steam coils. :wink:
That's why some of my drawings are using two damper valves.
I'm sure there's many ways this could be done.
One real benefit would be the ability to shut off the boiler, while the fire is still burning.
wood fired monotube boiler.png
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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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Prairiepiss wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:11 pm

The water in the steam boiler will be 212 the whole time. It can’t get any hotter. Unless pressure builds up. And we don’t really want that. And if it gets colder it is no longer producing steam. Which is the hole point of it.
The water can't get hotter than 212
But the steam can have more heat added to it.
Here's a video I found of a monotube boiler making super heated steam.

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Re: Wood fired steam boiler?

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I hate you shadylane. Now I’m off down in another rabbit hole I really shouldn’t be. :twisted:
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