The simplest steam setup?

Steam powered cooking and distillation devices.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

I have no experience with steam distillation. There are distilleries that use steam for their grappa. I've seen some projects here but I operate on a small scale and it's not really worth building complicated steam generators. The question is: a setup with a 20-liter kettle of boiling water, connected at the bottom to a pot filled with skins and equipped with column would work? Direct steam, without valves, second pot equal in volume to the first. Once I did a test out of curiosity and the steam got to the second pot condenses naturally and this made me think that the second pot should fill up a bit before it works, considerations on this? Thank you all.
Correct image
Immagine.png
Last edited by Demy on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

The only issue with that diagram is that there connection is below the water line. That be boiling water, not steam going into the pot.

I think a thumper is the simplest way to inject steam. It's basically what you drew just coming out of the top of the boiler and down into the bottom of the pot.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:58 am The only issue with that diagram is that there connection is below the water line. That be boiling water, not steam going into the pot.

I think a thumper is the simplest way to inject steam. It's basically what you drew just coming out of the top of the boiler and down into the bottom of the pot.
How stupid, I made a mistake I wanted to draw it as you said! I will try to correct it.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Either that or going into the top of the thumper pot instead of the side.

Water in the boiler will fill the thumper as it condenses so if you use wash or cleared mash in the boiler the ETOH will vaporize first and keep filling of the thumper to a minimum or at least to a minimum as the run progresses and evaporates all the ETOH.

Cheers!
-jonny
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

this is my current configuration for distillation of hides, usually a stripping.
Immagine 2.png
Immagine 2.png (13.88 KiB) Viewed 4916 times
I wonder, on a very small scale what are the pros and cons compared to a steam system? I believe the steam is slower to heat up the system and the temperature corrections will be slow, what other problems do you have to face? I would like an opinion of those who have achieved something in practice.
NineInchNails

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by NineInchNails »

I don't know a lot about building steam systems. It's very interesting though. It is my understanding one of the pros of steam, jacketed boilers and double boilers is no scorching so you can distill with grain and just about anything that you ordinarily cannot do with electric or propane.

I thought with most steam systems, the steam is isolated from the mash and mainly used to heat the boiler, not incorporated with the mash.
User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2399
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Durhommer »

Steam is scary to me I'm looking at swollengoats redneck Bain Marie
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

NineInchNails wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am I don't know a lot about building steam systems. It's very interesting though. It is my understanding one of the pros of steam, jacketed boilers and double boilers is no scorching so you can distill with grain and just about anything that you ordinarily cannot do with electric or propane.

I thought with most steam systems, the steam is isolated from the mash and mainly used to heat the boiler, not incorporated with the mash.
Yes I agree. I use the second system (with a basket to separate the solid part) and wanted to know if others have experience with the first design (separate boiler).
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

NineInchNails wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am I don't know a lot about building steam systems. It's very interesting though. It is my understanding one of the pros of steam, jacketed boilers and double boilers is no scorching so you can distill with grain and just about anything that you ordinarily cannot do with electric or propane.

I thought with most steam systems, the steam is isolated from the mash and mainly used to heat the boiler, not incorporated with the mash.
Most of the time that's how it's done. But with a thumper, you can just do steam injection either with clear wash or water in the boiler. There's a little bit of dilution that happens, but it's negligible if it's just stripping in a pot still.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:12 am
NineInchNails wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am I don't know a lot about building steam systems. It's very interesting though. It is my understanding one of the pros of steam, jacketed boilers and double boilers is no scorching so you can distill with grain and just about anything that you ordinarily cannot do with electric or propane.

I thought with most steam systems, the steam is isolated from the mash and mainly used to heat the boiler, not incorporated with the mash.
Most of the time that's how it's done. But with a thumper, you can just do steam injection either with clear wash or water in the boiler. There's a little bit of dilution that happens, but it's negligible if it's just stripping in a pot still.
Do you have experience with these systems? Do they work fine or is my current system better? I am interested above all for grappa but more generally for the stripping of fruit washes.
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

So you're using a Bain Marie with water in it? I don't have any experience with that. I've read that water isn't the best liquid to use for a Bain Marie. Can you put oil in it? I think that would be the best solution.

Are asking about injecting steam into the Bain Marie jacket or into the mash?
User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2399
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Durhommer »

The op was asking about steam injection I threw it off with the bain marie so I'll post my questions in the right topic
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:29 am So you're using a Bain Marie with water in it? I don't have any experience with that. I've read that water isn't the best liquid to use for a Bain Marie. Can you put oil in it? I think that would be the best solution.

Are asking about injecting steam into the Bain Marie jacket or into the mash?
The system is made in this way: pot, inside the pot (raised with feet from the bottom) there is a perforated basket that contains the marc. The water at the bottom is heated by an electric element. When the water boils, the vapor passes through the marc and exits the liebig. This is the current system (second image). I was looking for info on the first system with a separate pot (always filled with water) that produces steam, pros and cons compared to the current configuration.
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

My experience with steam injection with water in the boiler and dirty mash in the thumper is that it works well. My strip volume is a bit higher with lower abv than normal, but that just means I don't have to some my low wines. I strip down to about 10% coming out of the still. With a 9% mash I ended up with 25% low wines where I normally would have 35-40% without steam injection. But I also was able to run it with 5500w with no puking or foam issues. So if having a bit more low wines at a lower abv won't cause problems with your process, go for it.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:52 am My experience with steam injection with water in the boiler and dirty mash in the thumper is that it works well. My strip volume is a bit higher with lower abv than normal, but that just means I don't have to some my low wines. I strip down to about 10% coming out of the still. With a 9% mash I ended up with 25% low wines where I normally would have 35-40% without steam injection. But I also was able to run it with 5500w with no puking or foam issues. So if having a bit more low wines at a lower abv won't cause problems with your process, go for it.
Great, I wanted practical consideration, thank you very much. At the moment it's just an idea, sometimes the basket alone is not enough especially with fruit puree and I was considering this option. Have you made the connections with rigid copper pipes?
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

It's a typical thumper connection. A triclamp tee with a reducer and 1in copper pipe soldered in.
20200405_122305_HDR.jpg
20200921_144537.jpg
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:18 am It's a typical thumper connection. A triclamp tee with a reducer and 1in copper pipe soldered in.

20200405_122305_HDR.jpg
20200921_144537.jpg
What a beautiful piece of equipment ... I'm envious. If I understand correctly, the steam of the boiler enters the thumper from the top and descends to the bottom right? Is it practically a big thumper? Thank you
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

Demy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:52 pm
seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:18 am It's a typical thumper connection. A triclamp tee with a reducer and 1in copper pipe soldered in.

20200405_122305_HDR.jpg
20200921_144537.jpg
What a beautiful piece of equipment ... I'm envious. If I understand correctly, the steam of the boiler enters the thumper from the top and descends to the bottom right? Is it practically a big thumper? Thank you
Thanks!

That's right. It's just a thumper. Since it connects to a triclamp, it can connect to any sized keg. I also use it as a thumper for spirit runs with a 1/6 barrel as the thumper.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:11 pm
Demy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:52 pm
seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:18 am It's a typical thumper connection. A triclamp tee with a reducer and 1in copper pipe soldered in.

20200405_122305_HDR.jpg
20200921_144537.jpg
What a beautiful piece of equipment ... I'm envious. If I understand correctly, the steam of the boiler enters the thumper from the top and descends to the bottom right? Is it practically a big thumper? Thank you
Thanks!

That's right. It's just a thumper. Since it connects to a triclamp, it can connect to any sized keg. I also use it as a thumper for spirit runs with a 1/6 barrel as the thumper.
Thank you very much. One question: is the kettle under some pressure? I guess it will have to win some strength with a thick wash or am I wrong? I ask this to evaluate the kettle lid (I don't use the triclamp system). Thank you.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Yummyrum »

I use same as seabass for stream stripping Rice .

I fill my boiler full of water and rice slurry in thumper .
I think it would work just the same for your fruit . Wouldn’t need the basket . .... just dump it all in .
I used a 50 Litre keg of water and 80 Litre keg for thump

I have heard from a respected member elsewhere that he found he had initial partial blockages of wand and found it best to cover wand with a bit of water and once the steam started to come though , then dump in the slurry then close the lid on thumper .
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:27 pm I use same as seabass for stream stripping Rice .

I fill my boiler full of water and rice slurry in thumper .
I think it would work just the same for your fruit . Wouldn’t need the basket . .... just dump it all in .
I used a 50 Litre keg of water and 80 Litre keg for thump

I have heard from a respected member elsewhere that he found he had initial partial blockages of wand and found it best to cover wand with a bit of water and once the steam started to come though , then dump in the slurry then close the lid on thumper .
Does this make sense. What do you use on the bottom of the thumper? A perforated tube I guess? Which design works best? thank you so much
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by seabass »

I don't use anything on the bottom. It's just open 1in pipe at the bottom. It works fine and I don't worry about blockages.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

seabass wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:46 pm I don't use anything on the bottom. It's just open 1in pipe at the bottom. It works fine and I don't worry about blockages.
Interesting, thanks.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by shadylane »

Just a thought
The thumper is going to need a top that's easily removable and vapor tight
That's going to be the most complex part of the build :wink:
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by The Baker »

shadylane wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:09 pm Just a thought
The thumper is going to need a top that's easily removable and vapor tight
That's going to be the most complex part of the build :wink:
But simpler if you have the vapour inlet come in at the SIDE of the thumper, near the bottom.
Probably need the outside tube to rise to the level of the top so you don't lose liquid through it...

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by shadylane »

I prefer to have the steam inter the thumper above the liquid level, then pipe it downwards
That way when the steam injector becomes plugged, It can be removed for cleaning, without draining the thumper.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:09 pm Just a thought
The thumper is going to need a top that's easily removable and vapor tight
That's going to be the most complex part of the build :wink:
This is a further consideration, thank you.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:19 pm I prefer to have the steam inter the thumper above the liquid level, then pipe it downwards
That way when the steam injector becomes plugged, It can be removed for cleaning, without draining the thumper.
Very interesting, so the two containers (kettle and thumper) will be on the same level, the steam line comes out of the kettle and goes down to the bottom of the thumper, right? Like my first drawing?
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by The Baker »

Demy wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:25 am
shadylane wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:19 pm I prefer to have the steam inter the thumper above the liquid level, then pipe it downwards
That way when the steam injector becomes plugged, It can be removed for cleaning, without draining the thumper.
Very interesting, so the two containers (kettle and thumper) will be on the same level, the steam line comes out of the kettle and goes down to the bottom of the thumper, right? Like my first drawing?
I don't think the thumper needs to be on the same level as the boiler.
It is only vapour travelling between them.
It can be convenient to have the thumper higher; or if you have it as low as possible that will allow more height for the riser...

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: The simplest steam setup?

Post by shadylane »

The thumper can be above, below or on the same level as the boiler.
All that's needed is the proper plumbing to get the job done.
Post Reply