Horizontal steam pipe.

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NormandieStill
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Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NormandieStill »

I have finally managed to acquire another keg and the two projects that I would like to achieve with it are preheater and steam stripper. Currently my new keg is an unmodified 30L one. My existing keg boiler is a 30L with a 4" fill port on top, the original 2" spear port where the riser / column goes, a 2" drain at the bottom and 2 2" ports on the side near the bottom (one receives the heating element, and the other was my old drain port until I got sick of not being able to drain the last 4.5L without tipping the keg!).

So here's my idea. To run as a steam stripper, I would use the current boiler for putting in the solids, and the new keg as the boiler. I can make a steam wand from a piece of 38mm copper pipe, soldered to a tri-clamp end cap (passing through the end-cap). The part of the pipe inside the keg will be sealed at the end and have a series of small holes drilled in the bottom and sides. The part outside the keg will be fitted with a 2" ferrule to allow it to be attached to the boiler.

The boiler will need a release valve to prevent post-run implosions and an overpressure device of some variety. While the release valve could simply be undoing a tri-clamp, I'd rather have a manual valve which would also provide an emergency stop solution in case of something going wrong.
D98FA56D-F24C-48C5-A26C-575530FADE53.jpeg
I need to research overpressure release solutions and this is not going to be a fast-moving project before september / october. The goal if it's feasible would be to have it ready for stripping on-fruit ferments like plums or sloes with the aim of extracting the maximum flavour in the strip.

So is this a dumb idea? Should I just look at making the "standard" in-line thumper attachment for the top? I figure that the tri-clamp ports are already there so I might as well use them.

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StillerBoy
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by StillerBoy »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am To run as a steam stripper, I would use the current boiler for putting in the solids, and the new keg as the boiler.
Before going to far with the steam built, you may want to read/consider what Chickencornhusker has to say and experienced using steam as a stripping medium.. and I've had similar experience..

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=81433&p=7646845#p7646845

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shadylane
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by shadylane »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am
So is this a dumb idea? Should I just look at making the "standard" in-line thumper attachment for the top? I figure that the tri-clamp ports are already there so I might as well use them.
What's going to keep the thumper from draining into the boiler. :lol:
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NormandieStill »

StillerBoy wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:52 am
NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am To run as a steam stripper, I would use the current boiler for putting in the solids, and the new keg as the boiler.
Before going to far with the steam built, you may want to read/consider what Chickencornhusker has to say and experienced using steam as a stripping medium.. and I've had similar experience..

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=81433&p=7646845#p7646845

Mars
I do remember that comment, and it comes to mind whenever I think about steam stripping. Could you describe those flavours, and where they appear in the subsequent spirit run? I wonder if they cause the same problems for fruit as for grains. I really wasn't intending to use it for grains as my current system for on-grain, squeezed ferments is working out fine for me.

In the short term I have a storage system for up to 30L of low-wines so that's a win in any case!
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StillerBoy
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by StillerBoy »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:30 pm Could you describe those flavours, and where they appear in the subsequent spirit run? I wonder if they cause the same problems for fruit as for grains.
What I recall at the time, is that the smell of the low wine had a stronger smell of yeast/grain mix, and the whiskey carried it, and it still aging after some 4 yrs in 4 gal glass jugs, but I haven't checked it in the last yr..

As to fruits, I've only tried once in the thumper, low wine in boiler and must (red wine with fruits with lot of sediments) in the thumper, and it did not taste good, as less to my taste, so I gave it away..

Best to take the time to clear,( no matter what I do now, I take the time to clear), strip, then spirit.. still the best way for flavor and that applies to neutral..

Mars
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by Yummyrum »

shadylane wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:17 pm
NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am
So is this a dumb idea? Should I just look at making the "standard" in-line thumper attachment for the top? I figure that the tri-clamp ports are already there so I might as well use them.
What's going to keep the thumper from draining into the boiler. :lol:
My first thought too Shady .
Might need to have riser from generator go up above height in stripper keg then down to the bottom entry .
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by tjsc5f »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am The boiler will need a release valve to prevent post-run implosions and an overpressure device of some variety. While the release valve could simply be undoing a tri-clamp, I'd rather have a manual valve which would also provide an emergency stop solution in case of something going wrong.
This is the valve I use. It's a pressure relief and vacuum relief all in one. Works great for vacuum relief (haven't needed it yet for pressure relief yet, but I always actuate it manually before a run to make sure it's not locked up).
prvrvalve.JPG
I know a lot of people like to build manometers, but this thing is just nice and compact.
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NormandieStill »

shadylane wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:17 pm What's going to keep the thumper from draining into the boiler. :lol:
Will power. Blind faith. A solid ignorance of basic physics.
Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:34 pm
shadylane wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:17 pm What's going to keep the thumper from draining into the boiler. :lol:
My first thought too Shady .
Might need to have riser from generator go up above height in stripper keg then down to the bottom entry .
That would be the obvious solution, but in that case I may as well just set up a standard inline thumper connection at the top.

I completely missed Shady's post last night, and somehow, over two days of thinking, and then drawing out the picture, completely forgot how gravity worked.

If I can work out the internal connections the two low ports might work as a preheater, but this plus MCH and Stillerboy's comments on off-flavours from steam stripping mean I'll be putting this idea to bed. Thanks all. :wink:
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NZChris
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NZChris »

Sometimes, it's better to improve on an old design than to invent a new one.

If you can fit your arm through the port to butter the bottom of the pot, you could strip over a flame with the fruit in the boiler, as has been done for many years in rustic stills. Don't let the flame go out and try to restart later thinking that you will get away with it, because you won't. A friend of mine demonstrated that.
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:54 pm this plus MCH and Stillerboy's comments on off-flavours from steam stripping mean I'll be putting this idea to bed. Thanks all. :wink:
MichiganCornhusker wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm It's not about whether the clear is "better" than the cloudy, or on-grain, that is a subjective choice, but to suggest that a spirit made from a clear racked ferment is the same as one from clear, grain, yeast and all, well that's just not true.
Before you decide to can the whole idea it might pay to read through it all again......including the above quote by MCH.......
I'm not sure that I saw the words "off flavours" mentioned anywhere.
Ive read a seen a shit load of threads on steam stripping AG mashes both here and on other forums....that one mention is the one time Ive seen anything about the differences between the different methods.
MCH knows his shit, so as he says .....it might not be all bad ..just different.
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by StillerBoy »

Stripping with steam on an AG, the distillate (low wine and spirit) is different, that for sure, a much stronger overall smell and taste, ok if you want to blend it.. somewhat similar to secondary fermenting with muck in making rum, the low wine and finished product have a much different taste/smell.. being mindful that some like it others well it's for them to try it..

Only you can determine if it's for you are not, that's what this hobby provide you with, the opportunity to experience..

Mars
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by shadylane »

I've seen a couple videos on youtube
Where villagers used steam rigs to make brandy.
NormandieStill
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NormandieStill »

tjsc5f wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:41 pm This is the valve I use. It's a pressure relief and vacuum relief all in one. Works great for vacuum relief (haven't needed it yet for pressure relief yet, but I always actuate it manually before a run to make sure it's not locked up).
prvrvalve.JPG
I know a lot of people like to build manometers, but this thing is just nice and compact.
That looks cool. And neat and tidy. Thanks.

So I'll keep poking at the idea for a little longer. If I can set it up without too great an investment in materials I'll give it a go. I can solve the drain-back problem by simply lifting my boiler to the same height as the steam stripper and having the steam pipe drop down to the height of the port. I'll be wrapping the whole thing in insulation anyway. The fabrication should be simpler than an insert into a tee and I can probably do it in recovered copper pipe from the scrapyard. I'll stick to squeeze and clear for my wheat neutral and save this for whisky and eau-de-vie.

Thanks for all the comments.
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NormandieStill
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by NormandieStill »

So I've just forced my hand by starting a sloe ferment on the pulp. It's liquefying a little, but for the minute it's very much a full of solids. The goal is to let it sit in the pulp and stones for as long as possible to extract maximum flavour and then distill on the pulp to get all that flavour into the bottle. I don't have an enormous equipment budget right now, so here's what I have and the possible scenarios I can see:

1) Current boiler: 30L keg with a bulkhead threaded adaptor at the bottom for a drain, two soldered 2" tri-clamp fittings as low as I could get them on the body of the keg, the original spear mount as a 2" tri-clamp and a 4" tri-clamp fill port which is on the top at an angle. 2 holes drilled in the bottom to mount a U-shaped element which are sealed by the gaskets and the element.
2) Untouched keg: 30L keg with the spear removed. No ports added or holes in it.
3) 5L gin still: IKEA saucepan with a modified lid. 5L is to the rim so 4L is about the maximum fill for a run. No ports other than the 2" tri-clamp in the lid. Heated on the kitchen gas stove.
4) Two cut open 30L kegs used as mash tuns. One was flipped so the spear tri-clamp acts as a drain at the bottom. The other had the top roughly cut off (not my handiwork).

As it currently stands, when degassed the pulp + liquid comes to about 25L.

So possibilities:

1) Squeeze the bejesus out of the pulp, cold crash the resulting wine and rack the liquid into the still. Distill as per any cleared wash. This remains an option, but I'd really like to get all the maximum possible flavour out. The last year that was this good for sloes was 3 years ago so it needs a special treatment!
2) Build a thumper adapter for the current boiler (to turn it into a thumper) and use the untouched keg as a simple steam boiler. I have a shopping list of parts for doing this (more-or-less... I was toying with the idea of using a CIP adaptor as a steam pipe, but I think I'd go with a simple length of drilled copper pipe. The steam boiler will either sit on a gas burner (if I can get one easily) or a wood fire (rocket stove-like).
3) Use the 5L gin still, butter the base and do 6 / 7 runs. This doesn't appeal for several reasons. I don't want to move the stilling back into the kitchen as I have to use mains water, not recirculate rain water.
4) Build a dome for one of the open kegs to seal it up and do a wood / gas fired run.

Long-term option 2 seems the best. It gives me a useful tool for on-grain distillation and the second boiler could easily be converted to electric in the future. It does involve a certain amount of building, not least of all passing a copper pipe through a tri-clamp end-plate and maintaining a seal (soldered would make the most sense. I thought about using an end cap to make a flange and then drilling it out to pass the tube through.

As a slightly quicker fix, I think I can get a stainless salad bowl for around 20€ and I already have a tri-clamp ferrule that I could solder to it. But then I'm committing to a gas / wood-fired set-up for on-grain which is a little more problematic in the long term.

This post is largely just be talking myself through the options to work out which makes the most sense, but if anyone wants to join the conversation in my head with their experience (buttered pot techniques for example) then please feel free to join me... it's a little echoey in here!
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Re: Horizontal steam pipe.

Post by tjsc5f »

NormandieStill wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:58 am 2) Build a thumper adapter for the current boiler (to turn it into a thumper) and use the untouched keg as a simple steam boiler. It does involve a certain amount of building, not least of all passing a copper pipe through a tri-clamp end-plate and maintaining a seal (soldered would make the most sense.
I would agree with you that this is the best long term option. I have a half barrel keg thumper that I use for stripping on grain with no regrets.
That being said, my keg has a 2" drain in the bottom and a 6" port on the top that makes getting rid of the spent grains and cleaning out the foam crust after the run manageable.

As far as building goes, I used NPT to tri-clamp adapters to get the pipe pass through, which just makes it super simple to put together.
thumper_SECTION.JPG
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