The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[der wo]

How about using wood from a used half barrel sold as planters... Already seasoned.

I also thought about that. Would it be difficult to bend it flat again?

[WIski]

BadMo Wrote,

What can you tell us about it? Capacity? What wood how when? SA/V ?

I'm shooting for 5 gallon capacity depending on how thick the wood is and how deep the wood gets inserted. (ya go ahead all the pervs out there) I have some inch and a half white oak that's 12.5" wide so am going to attempt a one piece head. The SA/V should be about 45 with both ends being wood. The oversized half coupling and plug will let me add or subtract sticks if I want to play with flavor etc... Such fun we have.........

[kiwi Bruce]

How about using wood from a used half barrel sold as planters... Already seasoned.

I also thought about that. Would it be difficult to bend it flat again?

You could use the wood from the head which is already flat...but you would need to steam the staves and then either put them in a press or put a weight in them until they cooled and they probably would come flat. What about steaming one, putting it between news paper and driving the rear wheel of a car onto it until it cooled?....It could work ! KB

[Badmotivator]

Dude, I've come up with some loony ideas, but you guys take the cake.

[kiwi Bruce]

Loony ideas ! ...isn't the saying... "Alcohol makes the farts hang longer" it's something like that...or is it ..."Insanity is the mother of invention"...I dunno, it's Friday night...an I've had a couple or four....KB

[Badmotivator]

I ordered some used bourbon barrel staves today. I'm going to have a go at making barrel heads out of them, curvature included. If that fails I will experiment with flattening them.

[kiwi Bruce]

The oak when heated will bend...The 16th 17th and 18th century French and English Naval builders wrapped burlap around the ship planks and soaked them in boiling water and then jacked them into place on the hull... they were one foot thick and two foot wide...it will bend...KB

[Badmotivator]

Badmo Barrel #7, soak test. This one is going to be a gift to an Internet stranger. New quarter-sawn white oak, soaked for a week. Medium toast, #3 char.

[okie]

I lived on a boat for 25 years and one month a wood boat owner had to replace his hull planks near the top of his hull at the bow. He made a steamer out of the black pipe they use in sewers. He had a long length of it and glued a cap on the end. Then had a screw cap on the other. For the steam he used a turkey fryer filled with water and he had a hose connected to a lid and the screw end of the pipe. On the cap end he drilled a small hole at the top.

He inserted his board inside the pipe, screwed the cap on and fired up the turkey fryer. In no time steam was coming out of the hole. After about 30 min or so he took the board out and it bent easily.

Another friend took a microwave someone tossed and cut a hole in the glass door and the back. He soaked a board for a week under water. Turned on the microwave and very slowly pushed the board through the hole. It came out hot and bendable.

Two ingenious methods that work.

I do have a question. What ABV are you aging in the barrels?

[Badmotivator]

Two ingenious methods that work.

Those are awesome. Part of me is hoping I'll find it necessary to bend the used staves so that I can try that.

I do have a question. What ABV are you aging in the barrels?

Sometimes lower (57% for brandy) sometimes higher (63% for a UJSSM) but that's not because I have some coherent theory about it.

[okie]

Thanks, I make single malt and I age at 62-62% ABV usually.

I did learn a lot reading this long thread. The mistake I made was not soaking my oak in water first to release the tannin. I did an ageing lately where I did a double wood by placing in French oak that I didn't season first. The tannin is strong but it's still drinkable. I wish I had soaked it first and then charred more. Big mistake.

[cob]

Part of me is hoping I'll find it necessary to bend the used staves so that I can try that.

if you can use pieces that fit in the microwave you don't need a long soak.

dip in water, nuke to steaming, put in water till cooler repeat until pliable.

this method is fast enough for production work and easy enough to just play with.

3 or 4 sticks makes for rapid cycling.

[Brutal]

Part of me is hoping I'll find it necessary to bend the used staves so that I can try that.

if you can use pieces that fit in the microwave you don't need a long soak.

dip in water, nuke to steaming, put in water till cooler repeat until pliable.

this method is fast enough for production work and easy enough to just play with.

3 or 4 sticks makes for rapid cycling.

I bet this would help get the tannins out quickly too. Might be a good alternative for folks who can't find seasoned oak.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I should call lumber yard and inquire about how the oak I buy is seasoned.

Bet it's kiln dried.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

[Badmotivator]

I should call lumber yard and inquire about how the oak I buy is seasoned.

Bet it's kiln dried.

Pretty safe bet. Lumber guys mean something very different by "seasoned" than what coopers mean by "seasoned".

[Badmotivator]

Got a lot done in the last few days. I've been trying to refine my process for more ease and accuracy. Jigs, tapered augers, and a press are going to be very useful in cutting down the time cost and improving the quality. Also I got some used bourbon barrel staves and figured out how I could make use of that wood. More on that later.

So here are some new barrels! 3 ex-bourbon and 2 new-white-oak.

[Badmotivator]

It turns out that unbending used barrel staves is going to be an important step. I tried to make a barrel head with bent pieces but a) it looked like hell and b) it never sealed up.

Here are the bourbon barrel staves I bought:

bourbon barrel staves

They still had chunky char and were very messy to work with:

char

I scraped off much of the loose char just to make it easier to work with.
Here is what a pre-re-bent piece looks like on a flat surface:

stave curvature

After steaming and pressing between two blocks in a vise:

flattened staves

I could have just planed the curved pieces until I had flat surfaces, but I would have lost a substantial amount of thickness. Steam flattening saves wood, I believe.
Here's my workflow for using barrel staves:
Scrape
Chop
Steam and press
Dehydrate
Dress edges on Joiner/table saw
Dowel and join
Cut circle
Drill for bung and tap
Press in
Swell test

[yakattack]

Sounds like you had fun.

Which process did you follow to unbending the staves. I'm going to have to do that to some of my staves as now inknow how I am going to make my all oak barrel. You rock man.

Yak

[Badmotivator]

Sounds like you had fun.

Which process did you follow to unbending the staves. I'm going to have to do that to some of my staves as now inknow how I am going to make my all oak barrel. You rock man.

Yak

Thanks! Sometimes, I must admit, I do actually rock. Don't tell my kids; they think I am LITERALLY THE WORST OMG I CAN'T EVEN.

I put three pieces of oak to be steamed in a stovetop steamer, like for steaming veggies or whatever. I tried to arrange them to maximize exposed area. I steamed them for between ½ and a full hour. When a piece was ready to be straightened I placed it between two very thick and squared-up pieces of oak, and then ran to the vise and squeezed the snot out of the whole sandwich. As much pressure as I could get with my small vise. While that sat cooling in the vise I went back and added a new piece of oak to the steamer. From then on, every ten or fifteen minutes I'd remove the straightened piece from the vise, put a new steamed piece in the vise, and put a cold stave piece into the steamer. Repeat as necessary. You can get a lot of reading/cleaning/daydreaming done while running this program.

The water in the bottom of your steamer is going to get super foul, and there will be some (not permanent) tannin stains, so if you happen to have a junker pot you can use I'd recommend it.

[yakattack]

Thanks badmotivator. I'm going to have to give this a go as soon as I get my router table. Finally got a good router. Have oak staves. Have my bits. Times a waisten.

[rubber duck]

I just got one and its pretty slick. I'm going to fill it up and forget about it. Time will tell but it looks to be the perfect solution to long term small scale ageing.

Construction is top notch, I wish I had that kind of skill with wood.

[Badmotivator]

I just got one and its pretty slick. I'm going to fill it up and forget about it. Time will tell but it looks to be the perfect solution to long term small scale ageing.

Construction is top notch, I wish I had that kind of skill with wood.

Aw, thanks!

The one you got was made with 5/4 white oak instead of 4/4, and I planed it far less that the earlier barrels I made which showed somewhat high loss rates. I expect your loss rate will be much lower.

[rubber duck]

What's a high loss rate look like to you? On this oak to volume I think 10% is just about right to emulate a 10/ 15 gallon barrel in a year. Your loss rate vs your oxidation rate is a not a real problem at 5l.

[Badmotivator]

What's a high loss rate look like to you? On this oak to volume I think 10% is just about right to emulate a 10/ 15 gallon barrel in a year. Your loss rate vs your oxidation rate is a not a real problem at 5l.

Back on page 4 of this thread I mentioned that I was seeing annualized losses of 17-20% on a couple of barrels with thinner heads. That scared me, and in response I decided to buy thicker oak stock.

[Badmotivator]

Look what Santa brought!


It's the staves from a retired French oak wine barrel. I am putting together some Badmo barrels for a friend's brandy. He has two new-oak, two ex-bourbon, and next he'll get two ex-wine.

Think it's worth re-toasting the wood? I'm sure it's pretty neutral wood and I'd like to get some color and sugars out of it.

[rubber duck]

I take toasted barrels and char them, I think most refebished barrels are shaved and then toasted again. So ya I would toast them.

[Badmotivator]

to lose 17%-20% in the first year.

So one year aging in such a barrel is a good plan I think. What do you think?

Do you have experience in "normal" stick aging? So can you compare the results?

I do now have something like an answer. In Jan 2015 I put some UJSSM in a sealed glass jar with a toasted oak spiral. I let it sit untouched for 16 months. I tasted it last week, and it's still really rough. Hot heads and funk and "raw" flavors still very strong, not at all moderated by the oak flavor. The best explanation I have is that the lack of oxygen prevented the conversion of bad flavors to good. By comparison, some UJSSM that I put into Badmo Barrel #1 in Nov 2015 already shows signs of maturity! The heads burn is tamed, the "raw" middle is gone, and tails are absent. Unfortunately BB #1 was made with unseasoned oak, and it shows. My wine friend described it as having a "green stick" component. I would say "hint of new tannins". It's not horrible, but I'd prefer it to not be there. I look forward to seeing if time heals that.

So that glass jar will probably never "mature" the spirit. I decided to take its contents and put it in BB # 10. Because it was already oaked, and this barrel is new oak, I will probably have far too much oak flavor. Ah, well. It's an experiment, like everything else.

In conclusion, I now have some "evidence" (ha ha) that a Badmo Barrel is superior to a sealed glass jar with oak. It's no real surprise, but I've now got some support for the idea that oxygen is imperative, and that the Badmo Barrel oxygenates the spirit.

As far as the aging time goes: I am trying to replicate the performance of a large barrel because I hope to be able to age my spirits for many many years. But if the spirit is good after 1 year, well that little spigot sure will come in handy. I think I may never bottle anything. Instead, I will just take small amounts of different barrels every now and then, ad hoc, always trying to put down more new spirit than I drink up.

[der wo]

to lose 17%-20% in the first year.

So one year aging in such a barrel is a good plan I think. What do you think?
Do you have experience in "normal" stick aging? So can you compare the results?

I do now have something like an answer. In Jan 2015 I put some UJSSM in a sealed glass jar with a toasted oak spiral. I let it sit untouched for 16 months. I tasted it last week, and it's still really rough. Hot heads and funk and "raw" flavors still very strong, not at all moderated by the oak flavor. The best explanation I have is that the lack of oxygen prevented the conversion of bad flavors to good. By comparison, some UJSSM that I put into Badmo Barrel #1 in Nov 2015 already shows signs of maturity!

In conclusion, I now have some "evidence" (ha ha) that a Badmo Barrel is superior to a sealed glass jar with oak. It's no real surprise, but I've now got some support for the idea that oxygen is imperative, and that the Badmo Barrel oxygenates the spirit.

Of course this could be the most important point in this thread, because sticks aging is easier/cheaper and more adaptile. And if it would turn out same, a barrel would be only nice to look at. But this is more like a build thread, not the general discussion about jars with sticks vs barrels. And it's good, because first you have to build them, before you can test them. And of course a barrel like this solves for sure one problem, which normal small barrels have: The too much oak problem.

But your experiment against sticks was not fair. You did oaking, not aging. At least my opinion is (and you write the same), that without oxygen and a loss by evaporation or diffusion, the aging effect is very small.
But you can do it with sticks too. But it is only evaporation, your barrel has evaporation AND diffusion. That's the point, where I am uncertain, if open jars can produce the same quality like barrels. Or perhaps, if there is no quality difference, but at least another character.
The loss numbers I measured differ generally from the loss numbers of traditional whisky barrels: I loose too much ethanol in comparision to water. My explanation is: Ethanol evaporates more than water due to the lower boiling point and ethanol diffuses less through wood than water.

1l-bottle, 3 holes 2mm, 7 layers coffee filters, loss = 15-20% weight per year:

[steelmb]

You guys talking 20% per year scare me. I think the angels are getting greedy. Home much loss do you think a large barrel has? Outfits aging 10 or 12 years would have nothing left. I thing these kinds of losses are unacceptable.

[der wo]

Yes. But for one year aging it's ok. Badmotivator is currently testing thicker wood, what makes a many years aging without crazy loss rate possible.