Hello - I just did the introduction, still new. I'm fermenting a whiskey mash for an experiment I'm doing with my granddad. I figured that I might have some information to share with you.
We've used the whiskey yeast from Still Spirits for this mash, however I felt like I was missing some key information regarding sugar tolerance and therefore I reached out to Still Spirits. The satchet informs that it can ferment 25L mash in approximately five days but it didn't mention anything about sugar tolerance and I wanted to know which OG we could start with and how much sugar I can add later on to reach the alcohol tolerance of 15% that the yeast is said to have.
Still Spirits replied that the said yeast have a max OG tolerance of 1.110 which I hope that someone in here might find useful just as I did, hence the reason I wrote this post.
Maybe it's already here somewhere but I couldn't seem to find it and therefore reached out to Still Spirits. I am sorry if it has been debated before, just felt that I wanted to pass on some information that wasn't shown on the satchet.
If you plug 1.110 OG and 0.995 FG into a calculator , you get pretty damn close to 15% abv …. So SS did confirm in their reply to you what they quoted on their packet .
Incidentally , I’m using a calculator a member created as a a free Apple ap .
What you should think about is the “Tolerance ” bit .
There is the “happy yeast “ OG and then there is the “stressed out yeast “ OG .
Its the area between happy and stressed out where the yeast start producing more and more bad flavoured stuff . Even though they can tolerate a OG of 15% ABV doesn’t mean they are happy doing it .
Most home distillers will not start a fermentation with an ABV much above 8-10%.
Even the Commercial guys that want every last dollars worth know that keeping a fermentation OG way under 10% yields a better quality product .
I'm still learning about new calculators everyday, I wasn't aware of that one.. The reason I asked them about the tolerance was that I didn't wanted to stress the yeast and create nasty tastes. Unlike other satchets that says that you need say 6kg sugar for 25L volume mash, this one only stated the mash size and I felt that I needed more than that to achieve a satisfying result.
I probably won't get close to 15% but I was aiming to get somewhere in the high end of ABV but by adding sugar gradually to make sure I won't stress out the yeast. I'm sorry if I explained my self in a wrong way.
Adding more and more sugar is as bad as just adding a whole heap in the first place .
The poor little buggers just can’t happily survive in an ever increasing high alcohol environment . They gasp and gag and shit and fart as they slowly die
Only add as much as 10% ABV and you will achieve good results .
Interesting, I chose that approach because I read that doing so would prevent stressing the yeast cells because they wouldn't start of in a sugar coated environment that supposedly stresses them out..
Glad I got 15+ kilos of xtra barley malt laying around now.. I might even consider starting a second batch to make sure that at least one of them turns out good
If high ABV washes and mashes made good booze the big commercial guys would be using them......................The simple fact is that they dont, they keep ABVs low as do 99% of members of this forum.
Still spirits are in the business of making money and telling you what ever they think will make you want more of their product, on the other hand we make nothing from you , we just want to see you make good booze the right way.
I see, I was having the understanding that it was only the 16-18-20% washes that had the very off and turbo ish flavor, I didn't think that for an example champagne yeast would do that too. As mentioned, I'm learning every hour I spend here.
Will I be able to add more boiled(and cooled down) water to my mash, to prevent the ABV getting too high? Say add 5 liters to the mash, bringing it to a total of 30L instead of 25? Or will it be better to dilute it when adding it to the still? I assume it would be best to to it now before it creates off flavors?
Hold on... If I'm teachable? I'm here because I want to learn and I am explaining what I was thinking or believed, to give an understanding of why I was doing something. If I'm not 'allowed' to tell why I was doing A, I will never get to B with a proper explanation.
The point they are trying to make is that you should aim for an ABV of 8 to 10% - the happy zone.
i use distillers yeast which will happily go to 18% - but it doesn't taste good.
I aim for an OG of 1.064 to max of 1.070 - that gets me a ABV of 9.7 to 10.5 max
adding water part way through will introduce more oxygen, meaning the yeast will switch back to growth and not making ethanol
I've been where you are now (we all have), and collectively we've learnt that anything over 10% is not good tasting.
If you want more booze per run, get a couple of 50L barrels, make 3 x 45L ferments, strip 4 runs, which will give you about 28 - 30L of low wines and then do a spirit run with proper cuts
that will yield you around 9L of 60ish ABV for ageing, proofing down and drinking!
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
I was happy about the first answers, really and I took it in, I'm learning from it. What I'm not happy about is that another person comes in and starts insulting me as the first thing he does. Do we have a kind of mute or block button in here, seriously? I may be new inhere but at least I've read enough on here to know that that kind of behavior is not setting the standard between the rest of the 23k members and I honestly don't want to waste my time trying to learn from someone who starts by insulting me. As said, I am very happy with the firsts responses and I learned from them. They were informative and explaining, not ignorant and insulting.
I don't want to go down to that level and therefore want to avoid behavior like that. I'm here to learn and get experience, not to get attacked by someone who don't have anything else to do at the moment.
I'm also happy about you answering my question about adding more water. The mash was made last night, so it's too late to add water now right?
But yes I'm new, but I've read enough to know that most people in here are kind and approaching people in a way they prefer to be approached themselves.
Danishe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:11 am
The mash was made last night, so it's too late to add water now right?
depends how quickly it took off - it still in the growth phase, can probably add it - but no guarantees
once it has used up the O2 then in my experience, don't touch it until it is done (DTBT - didn't go well)
And yes, there are some "ornery" folks - but understand that they have answered these questions over and over and over and over and over .....
Phrasing of the question is also a key to getting a good answer.
Don't let a harsh answer get under your skin - you'll get more of them over time. Most of us have thick leather skins
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
Tons of good advice here already. I agree with it, just run more fermenters at a lower ABV (8 gallon buckets are cheap and maneagable), you will learn about your still every time you push a batch through
Don't take stuff personally, learn what you can and move on. This is a distilling site after all, not everyone is answering sober, and sometimes they are answering with a hangover, and sometimes they are just grumpy.
Wow, good bitta slow could be nice in here. Orneriness might be ok sometimes but it'd help if it was at least true.
Osmotic stress from high initial sugar concentration is not the same as high alcohol stress, at all. So step feeding is absolutely a beneficial thing.
Dodging that to focus on reliably safe advice for beginners who might not appreciate all the nuances and might get lost in the weeds is one thing. But dismissing it when it is openly asked about seems silly. Since it was specifically asked, osmotic stress tends to cause an excess of simple acetate esters that aren't very desireable. At a further extreme growth and fermentation will simply be stunted. Step feeding reduces this. Depending on yeast strain, what the sugar used for the initial osmotic pressure and the step feed makes a difference, eg many beer or whiskey yeasts will produce more esters with plain sugar and fewer with grain derived sugars like maltose so step feeding with white sugar may be very different from step feeding with malt extract and may reduce or enhance the benefit of step feeding. Osmotic stress has a much lower effect on production of fusel alcohol and other off flavors than other parameters which means that it absolutely can be used as a variable to craft desired results.
Anyone doubting step feeding is encouraged to start their research with RafaelArroyo's work from the 40's and continue up to Lellemand's current recommended protocols.
Also, the 8-10% limit is just flat out arbitrary. Even if there is a hard limit for quality, it is absolutely dependent on yeast strain, nutrition, temperature, pitch rate, etc. Does anybody here really think that a 10% sugar wash under pitched with S-04 at 100 degrees is going to be better than a 15% one fermented at 70 degrees with 1118? Gimmie a break.
My PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with still spirits whiskey yeast is that if abused a bit (high temp, high gravity, high refined sugar) it's ester profile is unique and it comes across in the spirit as grapey in a way that is not at all unpleasant but is strong enough to not be appropriate in most whiskies made to a style. But I quite like that grapey ester zing in a white lightening sugar shine and it is entirely possible to isolate it from other potential faults (like ethyl acetate, isoamyl acetate or fusel alcohols) in the cutting jars. Many non-stillers who tasted it simply called it brandy, though to me it was much more of a white grape juice flavor than actual brandy. If you want a more traditional whiskey profile then reducing ester production would be encouraged. I don't remember if I ever tried it myself but step feeding, especially with malt extract would be a logical approach.
Likewise, I have personally used it at 12% to make good whiskey from sugar heads and malt extract. I've used it up to 15% to make sugar shine's that were good to me, but definitely unique to a point I would accept criticism if someone in good faith didn't appreciate the particular ester profile. If that flavor isn't for you, I say fine and pour you something else. If you say it's "bad" "not good" "crappy" or any of the other things said ITT then I'd say piss off and GTFO. Of course it makes good all grain whiskey around 8% too.
Speaking of, the overwhelming reasons for lower abv washes in professional settings are mash efficiency, fermentation time and labor and capital efficiency. Not some ill defined standard of "quality" based on a hard rule. Any brewers among us ought to be able to sympathize with the efficiency of a 6% scotch wash vs a 12% one. And anybody who has worked in a production facility of any sort ought to understand why turning over a fermenter every 2-3 days is more profitable than turning it over every 4-6 days. And it ought to be evident that a 3 step time sensitive process costs more in labor than a 1 step process. Anybody here keep track of the labor value of their distilling hobby?
I wonder how "teachable" I am at this point myself? I wonder how much I want to be taught by old wives tales recounted around the sewing circle rather than actual data based science, or at the very least personal experience? Is it safe advice to say that moderate abv washes will tend to have fewer problems? Yup. Is it absolute enough to be ornery to the point that people need thick skin to hear it? Not at all.
Yeah it just bothered me that apparently hard skin is needed instead of just approaching people in a kind way, I'm just glad there is plenty of people who does that and live by that. I did by the way dilute my mash a bit, after diluting I had a gravity of 1.550 or so, don't remember exactly. I'm down to 1.000 as of an hour ago and will give it to tomorrow night after a family birthday. Might strain it while I'm attending to that. Also I bought 3 8gal fermenting buckets the day after we spoke about it in here and one is already busy working haha. Will buy more but I need to find a proper place in the house for a bigger amount of buckets and my 60L stainless steel fermenter too.
Zapata, especially thanks for sharing all that experience with me, it means a lot that you took time to share, explain and in general passing on that wide amount of information to me. It sounds like I need to buy more of this yeast because your experience inspired me a bit!
