My first dunder pit (with a ?)

[sadie33]

I have been reading the "pit" threads on and off for about a year. Been putting down some notes since Nov and finally started one. My husband is both intrigued and horrified.

I bought an 8 gal bucket and put 2 spigots in it; one at the bottom and one in the middle. I sanitized the whole thing and did a stripping run of SBB all molasses rum on 1/27. I got about 3 gal of dunder.

After reading a ton of threads on what other people added to their pit, I decided to go with a banana and yogurt. I put about 1/4 cup of whole milk, live active culture yogurt, I threw in the banana peel and chunked the banana in 3-4 pieces and threw that in. I put a bag of shells in for PH. The PH is between 5-6 (it's hard to tell with the dunder being so dark).

After reading a bit more I decided to slice up a potato too and threw that in the next day.

I have it sitting next to my wood stove (I have no idea where I'm gonna put it if it gets too stinky )

Yesterday I noticed a spot of mold forming on the top and was all excited!! BUT, now I'm wondering if it's because the banana is floating and air is touching it so it molded (no different than sitting on a counter and molding). I don't think that's the kind of mold I want-right?

Should I take out the floating bananas? Here's a pic, sorry the mold thing is so small.

[Tammuz]

If you had a butyric infection you'll not want it in your kitchen, it will warp into a better smelling ester. Ours took about 2 weeks for the smell to fade. You'll be adding to your muck bucket, for some reason I've read a few times that you should not disturb the cap that forms. I took a design from Still behind the bench on utube. Best of luck

[sadie33]

If you had a butyric infection you'll not want it in your kitchen, it will warp into a better smelling ester. Ours took about 2 weeks for the smell to fade. You'll be adding to your muck bucket, for some reason I've read a few times that you should not disturb the cap that forms. I took a design from Still behind the bench on utube. Best of luck

Thanks.
It's in my living room, but still, not sure how bad the funk will get. I read not to disturb the cap, and though mine is still so small, I was thinking of using a funnel with a hose attached to add the new dunder. I am hoping to do another stripping run this week.

My plan is to let this sit and age till next season when I start my rum again (it will be about 9 months)

[Reefer1]

He he you just need to chuck the sunday joint in there.
I posted a pic of my dunder jar, last month, it has 3 to 4 layers that sank to the bottom, these where actually mold caps.
I just covered the jar top with cheese cloth and a rubber band and left it in the shed, its been there over 12 months now lol.
Its stopped producing mold now. And it dosnt smell too bad.
Reefer1

[Reefer1]

By the way that banana looks like it needs flushing lol

[sadie33]

By the way that banana looks like it needs flushing lol

That's what my husband said!! LOL, well he said- is that a terd?

Will the banana sink? Should I leave it or ditch it? It's all kinds of foamy in there now, kinda bubblin.

[Reefer1]

Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say, i havent put anything in mine, some of the other members may give you some comments, i would give it a go see what happens, so long as you sterilise the dunder before use you will be ok.

[shadylane]

I have been reading the "pit" threads on and off for about a year. Been putting down some notes since Nov and finally started one. My husband is both intrigued and horrified.

My 2 cents worth.
It was so nasty, I disposed of the dunder bucket by setting it on a brush pile, lighting it afire and shooting it from a distance.
Just thinking about it makes me want to wash my hands.
From my experience, yeast thinks dunder is kryptonite.
If your chasing after high ester Rum, only add it after fermentation is over.

[Steve Broady]

If your chasing after high ester Rum, only add it after fermentation is over.

Also, if you really want high ester rum, there’s a LOT more to it than just making any old foul smelling collection of stuff using rum stillage and calling it a muck pit. I’ll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about it, aside from recognizing that I’d need to do a bunch of research before starting so that I had a halfway decent chance of getting the results that I was hoping for.

Fortunately for me, I’m not a massive fan of high ester run, so a nice panella and molassas rum is perfect and doesn’t need a muck pit.

[sadie33]

I do not want a high ester rum, I am more interested in the flavor profile. I might try it and find out I don't like it, but I won't know unless I try it. I'm not even sure how long I can keep it in the living room. If I have to move it upstairs (the loft) or downstairs (the basement) it will be cold. From what I've read, it won't die, just slow down. So I'm hoping in the summer it will pick up again and I will put it out in my shed.

[sadie33]

I have been reading the "pit" threads on and off for about a year. Been putting down some notes since Nov and finally started one. My husband is both intrigued and horrified.

My 2 cents worth.
It was so nasty, I disposed of the dunder bucket by setting it on a brush pile, lighting it afire and shooting it from a distance.
Just thinking about it makes me want to wash my hands.
From my experience, yeast thinks dunder is kryptonite.
If your chasing after high ester Rum, only add it after fermentation is over.

LOL, I may end up doing the same thing, who knows.

[kiwi Bruce]

Sadie if you like Jamaican rum, and you want to reproduce it...you'll need your dunder pit. One of the smells your looking for in you pit is the smell of...I know it sounds revolting...puck, as in throw-up. If you get it...DON'T THROW THIS AWAY!!! As with all the disgusting smells you'll get from your pit, the results coming out of your still will be amazing. For example :- the puck-throw up one, yields the most amazing taste and aroma of Pineapple. If you've done your reading/research you'll understand the process that goes on in the still to make this happen, (For the rest of you) think of it as a beautiful dance between heated copper and alcohol on a ballroom floor of disgustingness. However the result of this dance is something to behold. Just saying...if you want to do Jamaican, you've got to have the pits. If you DO get the puck smelling one, it's from a ground bacteria that is not common...Let everyone on the site know, maybe you'd like to share it!

[howie]

I do not want a high ester rum, I am more interested in the flavor profile. I might try it and find out I don't like it, but I won't know unless I try it. I'm not even sure how long I can keep it in the living room. If I have to move it upstairs (the loft) or downstairs (the basement) it will be cold. From what I've read, it won't die, just slow down. So I'm hoping in the summer it will pick up again and I will put it out in my shed.

not dunder related, but you might want to read up on rum oils as well.
i think it was mentioned by pugirum(?)
without consulting my notes, they are tails collected around a certain % on the spirit run and added to the next spirit run.
i noticed a distinct change in the profile of my hearts after adding rum oils.

[Bolverk]

There are fair easier ways to get an ester bump in rum than dealing with live dunder or a muck pit.

What id recommend.... add .05 gals of 5% white vinegar to your spirit run for every gallon of wash used to make the low wines.
Example: 10 gal ferment, use .5 gals vinegar or 5 gal ferment use .25 gals vinegar.

The high acetate esters are going to collect mostly in the high heads but you can blend back just a little of that to your hearts cut to get a more fruity/funky rum. And no, none of the vinegar smell comes over in the distillate.

[sadie33]

There are fair easier ways to get an ester bump in rum than dealing with live dunder or a muck pit.

What id recommend.... add .05 gals of 5% white vinegar to your spirit run for every gallon of wash used to make the low wines.
Example: 10 gal ferment, use .5 gals vinegar or 5 gal ferment use .25 gals vinegar.

The high acetate esters are going to collect mostly in the high heads but you can blend back just a little of that to your hearts cut to get a more fruity/funky rum. And no, none of the vinegar smell comes over in the distillate.

Okay, you caught me, it't not JUST about the flavor profile. It's the whole idea of dunder pits that is cool. The minute I saw the thread with all the maggots...I'm like- I gotta try that (without the maggots hopefully )

I don't know, the whole puke smelling thing turning into pineapple smells sounds pretty good to me.

[sadie33]

Sadie if you like Jamaican rum, and you want to reproduce it...you'll need your dunder pit. One of the smells your looking for in you pit is the smell of...I know it sounds revolting...puck, as in throw-up. If you get it...DON'T THROW THIS AWAY!!! As with all the disgusting smells you'll get from your pit, the results coming out of your still will be amazing. For example :- the puck-throw up one, yields the most amazing taste and aroma of Pineapple. If you've done your reading/research you'll understand the process that goes on in the still to make this happen, (For the rest of you) think of it as a beautiful dance between heated copper and alcohol on a ballroom floor of disgustingness. However the result of this dance is something to behold. Just saying...if you want to do Jamaican, you've got to have the pits. If you DO get the puck smelling one, it's from a ground bacteria that is not common...Let everyone on the site know, maybe you'd like to share it!

yes, this is what I'm going for. If it works. It's been a week and only that one little spot, which I still think is not the right mold, but I left it there. It still has a sweet beer smell. It's kinda fizzlin a bit. The foam has settled down a bit and now it's a thin layer of "sudds" for lack of a better word on top.

When I add my new dunder (hopefully on Friday) do I need to add anything to that? More yogurt, potato? I was going to boil the yeast bed after charging my still and add that to the dunder, let it cool a bit then add it through a funnel so I don't disturb the top.

[kiwi Bruce]

When I ran mine I added every nasty thing I could think of. The "Mother" from a bottle of apple cider vinegar, Yogurt, moldy fruit, bad lunch meat, and I added dirt from the garden and whatever it's called, that gross smelly stuff at the bottom of the compost heap. I wound up running three pits. I would stop adding more "stuff" when I got a spirit I liked, then I started a new pit. There are interesting bacteria on the hulls of malted barley. The muck from that added the smell of fresh cut flowers to a rum. You can't go wrong, if you get a rum you don't like, you redistill it and if it still has any "flavor" drip it through a column of activated charcoal. I did add chicken shit but that's the only animal crap I ever used. I'm serious about that muck that smells like "puke" I only had it once and the Rum was amazing. That "stink pot" died and I never got it back. Look up the research done by a chemist from Puerto Rico. (I forget his name) He has the protocol for starting and stalling the dunner pit using pH. A lot of his work is on our forum. Keep posting your results which means, you must KEEP GOOD NOTES!. You will need to find somewhere away from your living space for these - they do stink. Good luck...you really can't go wrong!...Kiwi

[kiwi Bruce]

The Chemist from Puerto Rico was Rafael Arroyo, he did great work.
search.php?keywords=Rafael+Arroyo

[MooseMan]

When I add my new dunder (hopefully on Friday) do I need to add anything to that? More yogurt, potato? I was going to boil the yeast bed after charging my still and add that to the dunder, let it cool a bit then add it through a funnel so I don't disturb the top.

Sadie I'm very much in the newbie stage of Muck pits, but I'd say definitely yes to the potato.
Don't bother boiling the yest bed though, just pout hot dunder over it, stir up and let it all cool to around 30C, that will do a great job of autolysing the yeast, then add it all to the muck pit.

[Bolverk]

The potato is there as a startch resistant food source (this potato needs to be gelatinized and cooled rapidly to bind the starch in a hard to breakdown format) for the bacterium that creates the butyric acid that makes the pineapple esters youre going for, as you have not inoculated the pit with a butyric acid creating bacteria this whole thing is not going to do what you're hoping for.

The lactobacillus culture you added will create some lactic acid and it will create some new enzymes to help breakdown some of the unfermentables, but again it's not going to do what you think/hope for here. In GCA samples of high ester rums the lactic acid esters are only in the .1% range of the total esters created.

You NEED a butyric acid creating bacteria (BAB) like clostridium, brett, hell some dirt sample even contain BAB but again unless you inoculate the pit, its not going to do what you want... especially in just a week or two. These bacteria need months/years to create enough acids in the pit to give you the desired effect.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you need to do a ton more research. I never thought I'd be studying food chemistry and biochemistry for fun, but here i am. It took me a good long time of reading books WAY over my head to finally wrap my brain around these concepts.

[sadie33]

The potato is there as a startch resistant food source (this potato needs to be gelatinized and cooled rapidly to bind the starch in a hard to breakdown format) for the bacterium that creates the butyric acid that makes the pineapple esters youre going for, as you have not inoculated the pit with a butyric acid creating bacteria this whole thing is not going to do what you're hoping for.

The lactobacillus culture you added will create some lactic acid and it will create some new enzymes to help breakdown some of the unfermentables, but again it's not going to do what you think/hope for here. In GCA samples of high ester rums the lactic acid esters are only in the .1% range of the total esters created.

You NEED a butyric acid creating bacteria (BAB) like clostridium, brett, hell some dirt sample even contain BAB but again unless you inoculate the pit, its not going to do what you want... especially in just a week or two. These bacteria need months/years to create enough acids in the pit to give you the desired effect.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you need to do a ton more research. I never thought I'd be studying food chemistry and biochemistry for fun, but here i am. It took me a good long time of reading books WAY over my head to finally wrap my brain around these concepts.

hmmm this is very good info. I did more research on the clostridium, it says it is found in animal poop. I have a farm and have a poop pile of horse, goat, rabbit and chicken. I could dig down kinda deep and get something composted and add a scoop of that. Or would fresh be better? a couple floaters?

I did read this: "Traditional boiling methods are generally not effective with Idaho® potatoes. A better method consists of precooking potato chunks to 140*F. water for 20 minutes, then bringing to a full boil and continue cooking until done. It will cause the starch to form a firm gel and prevent separation. This process is called retrogradation" I could do that to the new potato I add to my next batch of dunder, though my potato is a russet.

[Bolverk]

hmmm this is very good info. I did more research on the clostridium, it says it is found in animal poop. I have a farm and have a poop pile of horse, goat, rabbit and chicken. I could dig down kinda deep and get something composted and add a scoop of that. Or would fresh be better? a couple floaters?

I did read this: "Traditional boiling methods are generally not effective with Idaho® potatoes. A better method consists of precooking potato chunks to 140*F. water for 20 minutes, then bringing to a full boil and continue cooking until done. It will cause the starch to form a firm gel and prevent separation. This process is called retrogradation" I could do that to the new potato I add to my next batch of dunder, though my potato is a russet.

No, I would not use actual poop, not because its poop but because you have no idea what else in there with it. Go on ebay and buy some mirysan tablets (this is a Japanese probiotic) they are food grade clostridium bacterium and they have been screened for botulin toxins.

Microwave the potato until its done, quarter it while hot and put it in your freezer. You want it to rapidly cool to it take those elongated starch molecules and shrink them back into a bird nest structure. Once cool, toss one of those quarters into the pit.

The other thing... you need to monitor the pit of the pit, traditionally the muck pit were lined with marl clay to keep the pH from crashing, so some oyster shells or white marble to act as a buffer would be recommended 4-4.5 is ideal.

[sadie33]

hmmm this is very good info. I did more research on the clostridium, it says it is found in animal poop. I have a farm and have a poop pile of horse, goat, rabbit and chicken. I could dig down kinda deep and get something composted and add a scoop of that. Or would fresh be better? a couple floaters?

I did read this: "Traditional boiling methods are generally not effective with Idaho® potatoes. A better method consists of precooking potato chunks to 140*F. water for 20 minutes, then bringing to a full boil and continue cooking until done. It will cause the starch to form a firm gel and prevent separation. This process is called retrogradation" I could do that to the new potato I add to my next batch of dunder, though my potato is a russet.

No, I would not use actual poop, not because its poop but because you have no idea what else in there with it. Go on ebay and buy some mirysan tablets (this is a Japanese probiotic) they are food grade clostridium bacterium and they have been screened for botulin toxins.

Microwave the potato until its done, quarter it while hot and put it in your freezer. You want it to rapidly cool to it take those elongated starch molecules and shrink them back into a bird nest structure. Once cool, toss one of those quarters into the pit.

The other thing... you need to monitor the pit of the pit, traditionally the muck pit were lined with marl clay to keep the pH from crashing, so some oyster shells or white marble to act as a buffer would be recommended 4-4.5 is ideal.

I did read about the Japanese probiotic in someone's muck pit. I will order that. I also read that some people start one strain, then later infect with another. I'm thinking that where it is 11* F outside now and if I do get that stinky funk going on that I want, I have no where to put it. Maybe I will let the pit sit as is for a while, then when it gets hot out, add the Japanese probiotic and move it out doors.

Thanks a lot for all the info. It's amazing all the reading I have done over the past year and I still didn't get it quite right!

[kiwi Bruce]

How big is your dunder bucket? Could it fit into a wooden box? If it could, then you may be able to set up a heated box with light bulbs in the bottom as the heat source. If it has to be outside where the public could get at it, don't worry about it being stolen! That would be just to funny!

[sadie33]

How big is your dunder bucket? Could it fit into a wooden box? If it could, then you may be able to set up a heated box with light bulbs in the bottom as the heat source. If it has to be outside where the public could get at it, don't worry about it being stolen! That would be just to funny!

It's an 8 gal, kinda short and fat. I don't think hubby would approve of a heated box (with all the farm animals we have heated water buckets already plugged in). I had thought about a beer brewing belt, or fish tank heater and putting it in my loft, but not sure about all that.

The only reason I started it in the winter, is I wanted it aged for next season. Now that I think about it, I probably should have waited till summer and it just wouldn't be so aged. I guess we'll see how it works.

[sadie33]

Just ordered the tablets, I should get them by March 12th, good thing I ordered them now.

[Bolverk]

I did read about the Japanese probiotic in someone's muck pit. I will order that. I also read that some people start one strain, then later infect with another. I'm thinking that where it is 11* F outside now and if I do get that stinky funk going on that I want, I have no where to put it. Maybe I will let the pit sit as is for a while, then when it gets hot out, add the Japanese probiotic and move it out doors.

I doubt anything else will survive in it once the clostridium gets a good foot hold, but i suppose you could try it.

A separate bucket with the other heterofermentitive lactobacillus is typically a better option than trying to make an all in one muck

[kiwi Bruce]

A separate bucket with the other heterofermentitive lactobacillus is typically a better option than trying to make an all in one muck

Ditto that Bolvert

[sadie33]

I did read about the Japanese probiotic in someone's muck pit. I will order that. I also read that some people start one strain, then later infect with another. I'm thinking that where it is 11* F outside now and if I do get that stinky funk going on that I want, I have no where to put it. Maybe I will let the pit sit as is for a while, then when it gets hot out, add the Japanese probiotic and move it out doors.

I doubt anything else will survive in it once the clostridium gets a good foot hold, but i suppose you could try it.

A separate bucket with the other heterofermentitive lactobacillus is typically a better option than trying to make an all in one muck

hmm...so I guess I will wait till summer and start this again? I do have 2 more rum runs I need to do. Would there be any benifit or flavor in what I have now? Should I add some of this to my low wines when I do my spirit run or just chuck it? I'm only out a banana and a potato.

[Bolverk]

hmm...so I guess I will wait till summer and start this again? I do have 2 more rum runs I need to do. Would there be any benifit or flavor in what I have now? Should I add some of this to my low wines when I do my spirit run or just chuck it? I'm only out a banana and a potato.

Id toss it