Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

[grizzlypee]

anno
this is cut from a great extensive post from tater under the title "fermenting temp?" likely the longest post on the forum. great info. thnx tater

DAP (Diammonium phosphate) is also known as "yeast nutrient" among wine/beer makers. Yeast energizer is typically a yeast hull extract- an all-natural version of yeast nutrient- it doesn't work as well, because there just isn't enough free-amino nitrogen in it. Most homebrew shops (who know what they are doing) sell the DAP salt- it should look just like any other chemical salt (like table salt, but with bigger crystals)- if it's off-white, brown, or any other color- it's likely a mix of yeast nutrient, yeast energizer, some B vitamins and other assorted junk (ie trace minerals, folic acid). If your local homebrew shop has it's head up it's arse, try checking online for a domestic home-brew shop that sells it online. Most homebrew magazines have dozens of adds for places like this- just find the closest one to save on shipping.


One recipe for nutrient ale salts is

* 58 g sodium chloride (common table salt)
* 170 g citric acid
* 7 g ammonium sulphate
* 6 g magnesium sulphate
* 2.5 g grape tannin

This mixture is hygroscopic (attracts water), so keep it in a cool dry place with a good lid.

The "Great New Zealand Home Wine Making Book" suggests to ... "buy some ammonium sulphate or ammonium phosphate, and some pottassium phosphate or potassium sulphate and add 2g (1/2 teaspoon) of each to every 4.5 L. Another valuable addition is vitamin B1. You can buy these as tiny 3 milligram tablets from your local chemist or pharmacy and add one of these each 4.5 L" ...
Darryl offers ...

Before turbo yeasts came along, I would use a champagne yeast and my own nutient mix to ferement a sugar wash. For a 20 litre wash I would use 5 kg sugar plus the following nutrient mix:
o 4 tsp winemakers' yeast nutrient salts
o 4 tsp citric acid
o 1/3 small jar molasses
o 1 tsp marmite


Concerning the use of Urea in nutrients, Des writes :

According to 'The Food Regulations 1984, Amendment No. 5' dated 2nd December 1991 regulation 235, General alcoholic drinks, subclause 3 says "General alcoholic drinks may contain any of the following:", paragraph (i) "Yeast nutrients, except urea"

Which is what has been quoted in past correspondence and always referred to when discussing the issue, however: 'The Food Regulations 1984, Amendment No. 9' dated 10th of October 1994 regulation 101, (3) states "Regulation 235 of the principal regulations is hereby further amended by revoking paragraph (i) of subclause (3)." ie the exception to urea above is now revoked.

On seeing this I contacted the New Zealand Health Department and requested, under the Official Information Act, all the paper work as to why the original banning and why the lifting of that ban. Of course, I got screeds of paper but the story is that the ban was instigated because of research done in England that pointed health risks of urea as an ingredient for fermentation. Thus it was banned.

It was later realised that although these chemicals were present in the fermented wash, they were not present once the wash had been distilled. It appears that they are not carried over in the distillation process, thus the ban for this type of alcoholic product was lifted.

Mike adds ...

Nothing wrong with urea in modest quantities... the human body excretes it daily, and in some quantity, so it is not a killer. However, only drawback with its use as a nutrient is that it encourages production of ammonia compounds, and that can taint a brew. This was a common complaint from people who had problems with early turbo mixes that used excessive urea. Current mixes appear to have overcome this problem, but addition of urea yourself should be governed by caution. A little goes a long way. DAP is a better nutrient to use as the ammonium radical is more tightly bound.

[Annolyx]

Thanks Grizz.
Looks like parent site at its finest to me. Don't know how i missed that. I went ahead and ordered some DAP and citric acid.

http://www.dwinesupplies.com/dws/produc ... 0&child=73" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Has just about anything you could imagine as far as nutrients, yeasts, etc. goes. Pretty decent prices and the shipping wasn't bad either. They don't have 1lb bags of DAP listed but I contacted the owners and they said customers usually just add a note when they check out if they want a lb. Hope someone finds this usefull.. Would be nice to be the one giving advice for a change

[grizzlypee]

good site anno,

norther brewer is a pretty good source too. http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/d ... -4-oz.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. i bet a fellow could make a lot of friends here if he bought that 30lb bag on your link. good luck!

[Centimeter]

I've given this recipe a good go and I have to say that it makes a really smooth vodka after reflux, but I sure seem to get a lot of that sweet caramel like flavor that i can't get rid of (even after extensive charcoal filtering). Anyone else get this? Anyone have any remedies that they might bequeath upon me?

[Annolyx]

I've heard a lot of good things about oak chips, charred or not, doing a good job smoothing it out. Something to do with the chemical reactions. There are plenty of posts on the subject. I'm sure there a plenty of people who would also say to take tighter cuts and to not be greedy with the tails.

And as always make sure you allow your wash to clear to almost an apple juice look to keep as much of the yeast as possible out of the boil.

you may also consider doing a few stripping runs then combining them for a final flux.. Some people even add salt/baking soda to that final run to help promote a smoother spirit.

[sleder]

my 2 cents
ethonal is sweet thats how i make my cuts
u could add your heads back that gets rid of the great taste
try some grey goose after yours airs for awile try it again. not many will tell them apart
i like what youve made sleder

[SaltUbar]

Hi There,

I have tried 4 WPOSW with the first being exactly as described (bakers yeast). The mash after it had cleared looked like water. The low wines after stripping had a pleasant smell and was quite drinkable. Fermentation and clearing took about 4 weeks

I have also tried with turbo yeast. This fermented in 5 days. The low winds was just as clear but the ethanol had a distinctive banana taste. (will not do that again, I am back to bakers yeast)

I have also tried doubling the amount of DAP. This seamed to slow down the fermentation.

The last brew I made sure I aerated the 55 lt of wash by vigorously stirring for 5 minutes and added a crushed Vit B complex pill. I also put in the leftover yeast from a previous batch instead of the normal yeast. After 45 minutes nothing. So I put in the normal baker years. Well this then took off like a rocket and within about 2 minutes I had a fountain of yeast coming up through the air trap. After 24 hour it settled down and I replaced and cleaned. I will update you all when I know how log this take to finish. But I have seen a marked difference in the ferment with aeration and Vitamin B.

Regards Ubar

[newerbrewer]

Wineos recipe calls for 1/4 cup of brewers or 1/2 cup of bakers. I bought fresh bakers that came in a 1 lb block. Should I use 1/2 or 1/4 because I've heard the fresh bakers is the same strain of fungus as brewers? Just dont want to over-yeast things.Thanks so much (again)

[olddog]

Just follow the recipe.

[SaltUbar]

Hi Guys,

Update on the post above,

My WPOSW as gone from 1.058 to 1.012 in 4.9 days but the fermentation has slowed right down now. In the next wash I will try and see if I can keep the Ph at about 5 using Calcium Carbonate to see if it makes a difference.

Regards Ubar

[SaltUbar]

Hi Guys,

Update from my experiment with Calcium Carbonate.
At Day 5 I added 7 Teaspoons of Calcium Carbonate and 1 Teaspoon of DAP.
Bubbling through the air trap had stopped but now day 14 there are 7 bubbles per minute.

This is in a 55 lt wash made as close as I could with Wino's recipe.

FermentationProfile.jpg (14.64 KiB) Viewed 4447 times

Regards Ubar

[SaltUbar]

Hi Guys,

Here is the follow up from the previous post.

This is where I had a stuck ferment on day 5 which I solved by adding DAP and Sodium Carbonate at which point it took off again. The question I wanted to answer was if I continuously added small amounts of DAP and Sodium Carbonate would this then prevent the stuck ferment and would it ferment faster given I was providing a better environment for the yeast (less acidic and more nutrients)

So

I have done another WPOSW wash identical to the previous one (see above) however each day I have sprinkled 1 teaspoon of DAP and 4 teaspoons of Sodium Carbonate. The thinking and from reading posts on the site is that the Yeast get O2 from sugar but needs nutrients (unknown validity to this thinking I am not a biologist just testing if there is an effect on the ferment) so added DAP for the nutrients and Sodium Carbonate the stronger form of Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) to make the wash less acidic. I have previously tested that I don’t get Ammonia or blue colour as long as I keep the Ph in the wash in the acidic range.

The graph below is what I have got after three days.

I am graphing both the Specific Gravity (SG) adjusted for the temperature of the wash and the ABV% calculated using the formula found on this site. The dotted line plot is the wash I graphed in the earlier post the full line plot is the new wash with the daily addition. I have also added a further plot of a wash I did with turbo yeast last year for a comparison.

What I think I am seeing is a huge improvement in yeast activity after day2 where the yeast is not being stunted by the high acidity of the wash. Unfortunately I am in the same boat as beelah I don’t know if the results on this wash are because of the Ph control or the extra nutrients. This is a question to solve in the next wash. Learning learning learning…

Interested in what you guys think about this.

[Saccie]

I had been using sodium carbonate, i had a suspicion it might be stressing my yeast (because even thought the wash performed better than being highly acidic without it seemed to have more off flavours) i also noticed with it the ph always went acidic again very fast! I would be regulating it maybe twice a day for first 3 days. I have managed to get some calcium carbonate which people here say is far better on the yeast. have used half a table spoon to regulate the ph after first 2 hours or some and has barely budged after 24 hrs I wont even be checking it for another 12 - 24 (which was not the case with sodium carbonate) I will update and tell u guys how it goes.

[Dnderhead]

sodium is added to bread/beer not to increase yeast activity but to control it, by adding sodium the yeast"farts" a bunch of small bubbles instead of big ones.
therefor you have the fine bubbles in beer and the small holes in bread . if you do not add salt to bread you git those larg holes your butter/jam falls threw.

[Saccie]

sodium is added to bread/beer not to increase yeast activity but to control it, by adding sodium the yeast"farts" a bunch of small bubbles instead of big ones.
therefor you have the fine bubbles in beer and the small holes in bread . if you do not add salt to bread you git those larg holes your butter/jam falls threw.

So I'm guessing yeast fats r a bad idea in distill washes well the wash I have going now has a different smell to it even so far because ph is only being regulated by calcium carbonate, when I put it in the boiler I guess I'll see exactly what change its made, as for now the ph seems much more stable not jumping all over the place. Thanks for that info =]

[Dnderhead]

I don't care if they let big ones or small ones,, as long as they do there job. according to white labs 500 PPM of sodium adversely affects the yeast.
how much this is I have no idea, so I just avoid sodium when possible.

[Saccie]

I don't care if they let big ones or small ones,, as long as they do there job. according to white labs 500 PPM of sodium adversely affects the yeast.
how much this is I have no idea, so I just avoid sodium when possible.

More nice info ;D ppm = to a little under mg per liter. 499mg per litre which is quite a lot when u think about it :S 11g to 22L wineo wash, which is at least what i was using to regulate ph anyhow!!!

Ill save my sodium for my low wines runs and calcium carbonate for fermentation ph =]

[crunchman]

Is it OK to use isinglass to speed up the clarification process or will it foul the taste too much??

Also, I live in the desert with Really hard water, should I use distilled ?? Thanks, all my supplies are on the way to start !!

[Dnderhead]

isinglass should not hurt but not necessary.it does not have to be that clear as long as the"worst of it" settles.
yeast like minerals,of course that depends what they are .best try a small wash and see.

[crunchman]

We'll give it a go and see how it comes out, see if "works" first.I'll follow the recipe to the letter, my water (extremely hard) has me thinking to use distilled, I don't know if thats right or wrong, we do have a water softner though.

[Dnderhead]

if you use distilled water you could fiend your self adding minerals, some of the mane ones yeast like are,,,
calcium,magnesium,,zinc,potassium.any additions? then of course nitrogen.
some of the excess minerals can be precipitated out by boiling then letting it sit.

[crunchman]

In that case dnderhd maybe I'll use the straight tap water as it has all the aforementioned minerals.How important is PH ?, I'll have to find out what ours is.Thanks for the response!

[Dnderhead]

Iv never found PH that much of a issue as yeast is quite tolerant and will work in a ph of 3.5-8,tho 4.5-5 is best.
but the ph will drop as the ferment progresses, so if you start with say a ph of 7 by the time ferment is over
it is at 4. if your wash is over 8 then you mite want to add acid,if it low then add a buffer,(I like calcium carbonate)
Id do a wash and see, the most that will happen is a slow ferment,if so then check the PH.
( do not go adding stuff to adjust PH just because someone else did,everyone's water is different)

[crunchman]

I have the supplies coming in soon, so I"ll do it verbatim and see how it goes, I was wondering how temperature tolerant the distillers yeast is ?, being in Arizona with temps already in the mid 90's F, I have to ferment in the garage and it may exceed that but not by much, just not sure how critical temps are.I see people using wet towels and the like, suppose I could that as well......Thanks for the help dndr

I'm trying to get my head around all the math on the parent site though I think this formula has been worked out, Awful lot of information to consider!!, not to mention starting a BOK in the next few weeks, trying to determine if 24" is adequate or should I go bigger.My understanding is to do a "wide open" stripping run then a spirit run which I've been reading about.Trying to figure out how long these runs will take, I'm guessing 4-6 hours on an electric stove at home 1500 watt burner..........back to the salt mines!...Thanks again!

[crunchman]

It Lives!, Wash #1 is up and running.Started at 84 degrees, SG of 1.078.Airlock plunking away at about 2/second.

I weighed the sugar with a digital scale to 8lbs and used exactly 6 gallons of water, SG was 1.060 so I had to add more condensed sugar, in the future I'll measure SG prior to adding the total water amount ? I used mostly bottled water plus some of our hard water and omitted the gypsum, hope theirs no ill effects.

Anyway it was fun and now I need to build a BOK probably within the next few weeks, I'll measure the SG every other day, How long or what specific gravity would suggest the process is finished??, I'll probably rack it for another week or so before my first attempt at a run, gotta get some copper!

Thanks for all the help people!

[Dnderhead]

you have to watch recipes some are ingredients + water,, others are given in total amount of wash.

[braemar]

Hi,
There has been alot of importance put on clearing the wash properly ,could you use Bentonite that wine makers use to help clear the wash or would this put unwanted tastes into an otherwise very clean spirit.
Regards
braemar

[Braz]

I have never had to use any clearing agent. When the wash has finished (SG around .996) most of the yeast will have settled to the bottom. At that point I rack into another container, put it in a refrigertor and let it settle for about a week. At that point it is usually clear with some additional yeast in the bottom. Sometimes I will rack it a second time, especially if it will be a while before I strip it.

The height of your Bok column depends on its diameter. The rule of thumb is that the height should be 12 times the diameter - more or less. My 2" diameter packed column is 39" tall and it produces 95-96% consistently.

[basementjack]

hey people,

i just distilled my first batch of wineo's wash last night. It took over 3 hours to get just 2.2 litres of neutral at 80%. that was after it came to the boil.
it was coming out of the still at snails pace, a slow drip the whole time. i'm used to distilling turbos and i get a much greater yeild, about 3.2 litres in 2 hours.
Can anyboby tell me if this is normal or have i done something wrong

jack

[olddog]

This is normal you have just distilled quality, with turbo's you distill quantity, let this run air properly for 24 hours and then sample. BTW did you make cuts or just collect everything.



OD