Home Distiller

im a bit of a water and power saving nut..
I have a pot still pictured but it can be applied to a column as well..
this is not a new idea, i just expanded on it a bit.
I calculated that a cylinder approx 30cm 1ft in diam and 1M or 3ft high will give you a capacity of 70L


if you run the output from the still into the cylinder containing wash or low wines you will pre heat it and condens your output.
anything passing the preheater will then be condensed by the internal coil condenser, taking a large load of you condenser and saving on water.
any evaporation from the wash in the preheater will rise and condense in the internal condenser running down to the take off at the bottom of the U inside the preheater.

when your run is finnished you pump the preheated wash into the still, if you have room you can raise the preheater above the still and use gravity.

the doubler is strait forward, 1 plate with return..

hows it look..?

cheers.

From a quick look at this still, I like how it looks. I am not sure what the upper U (the upside down U) part above the external coil is for. I would think the housing for this coil would simply be open to atmosphere (in the pic, you make it semi transparent).

I wonder if you could put a worm coil or 2 at the top of the vapor input into your condenser, and also put the takeoff from condenser back to pot at the top, and a new mash feed at the bottom of the condenser, and come close to turning this into a continuous stripping system. The top of the liquid in the condenser (if you kept currents from mixing, and if insulation was used), would soon get close to or at boiling temp.

Then, by monitoring output volumes, and temps at the top of the condenser, you could determine how much spent wash to drain, and how much fresh mash to pump into the bottom of the condenser causing the condenser level to rise, and the top part to be fed into the boiler. Then the cycle would start over. Higher ABV in the boiler, start taking it off, heating the top of the condenser to near or at boiling, along with boiler having some volume removed. For this to work, the condenser would need to be sealed, and the return tube slanted down from condenser to boiler, and above the level of the worm coil or 2 in the condenser, so that any vapor created in the condenser would have an escape path (into the boiler), and when new mash was pumped into the bottom of the condenser (gravity feed would work fine), that the overflow of hot or near boiling mash from the condenser would have a proper flow path into the boiler. The pumping of mash into condenser should be slow enough to keep the liquid to only part filling the return tube. NOTE this is just brain storming, while sitting here. I do not know that this would work, but I see no reason why it would not. It is possible that output would stop for a short while, once a new "cycle" happened, since the boiler ABV would be quite a bit under the ABV of the mash in the condenser, but it would not stop for long.

However, the simple design of your original drawing, looks like something which would in theory work just fine.

H.

im sort of moving away from the continuous type setups...

it just seems that the best way to do it is to do the multiple runs.

i do multiple striping runs, and it gets to be a pain in the arse and a huge waste of energy..

what is pictured is just a plain pot still, the idea is to reduce time it takes to heat up the wash, reduce power and water used etc, basicly energy saving..

it sort of looks complicated but the idea is that you use your next wash as a cooling liquid while at the same time resulting in preheating it...

you are right the transparancy is just so you can get an idea inside..

the inverted U above the external condensor is to cool any vapour from the preheater and evporated alcohol out of the preheating tank and return it to the take off.. not realy to make it continues..

altho still theory.. there is no reason why the next wash couldnt be around 40-60c when you drop it to your boiler.

i havent included obviuous things like reflilling the preheater etc. its more concepte atm..

im trying to picture the addition of extra condensers..
ok... thinking.....

if i was to add a second condensor so i dont take off from the preheated wash but return it to the pre heating tank that will eliminate any methanol geting into final product..

hmmm....

hmm but its realy to assist in strpping so you wont be taking heads..

still thinking..

Looks cool, I want to watch and see how this goes, I am still working on theory myself so can't add much constructive at the moment.

Me

This is where im at......



its boiler and top is all .9mm or 18-20guage i think copper altho it looks dirty in the pic the white stuff is just jiff cream scouring liquid...

and the out side is gal sheet..

capacity is workable 45L

wont be doing anything overly to it till start of jan 09, im in the process of cleaning it up and restoring etc..

Nice drawing. You could preheat by simply using mash as the heat dump for a worm. But your method has a pump for easier handling.

Just one thing...Once the cooling mash gets up to temp it starts to boil off. Your cuts will mingle as the fores and heads from the preheater mix with whatever is coming off the still. You'll essentially be adding a second, remote boiler at that point. This would be great for stripping, but it will work like a continuous unit. Maybe bypass the preheater once it's almost up to temp? Just add a valve in the lyne arm above the preheater so your vapor could be directed as desired.

-Mud

-edit- I think I missed some of your post decoy. You apparently already thought of the cutting issue. Just bypassing straight to the coil should work. You could make a collection reservoir like some of the Bokakob designs. If the mash cools you can always divert to it again just before you're done to bring it back up to temp.

This is sweet. The one trick part will be to get sufficient surface area on the submerged U tube with drain for the heat transfer into the preheater. It is essentially a worm, so you might need to coil it up to get adequate heat transfer.

This is very much like the French stills for cognac- they use a preheater.

http://www.oregoncopperworks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

post scriptum:

http://www.american.edu/TED/cognac.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

as i said its not a new idea, i picked it up from this pic there was also a drawn sctch that you can see on the side of the worm tank but i cant find the larger version now..


i am still deciding on the path to take as far as the preheter and final condensor but my scrap metal yard closing till 25th jan 09 wont help...

i located a 50 lt stainless pot for $50 which might get me out off trouble..

i will post pics as i go..

To simplify matters you could also just roll a worm and drop it in your fermenter/mash tub and have the bottom of the worm curl up to the top and out. Then you hook up the output water from your liebig to the input pf the worm and run the output of the worm to your cooling tank. Presto, preheated wash and no extra take offs and plumbing. probably not as efficient as the system shown above but definitely a simper alternative that saves enery as well.

The exit on your worm needs to be at its lowest point or the worm will fill with condensed spirits.

Agreed Hack.

WhiteLightening, doing what you specify, is VERY dangerous. Do NOT recommend this method, in this way.

Yes, you CAN heat wort prior to distilling, or even do a mash using a worm, however the worm MUST be built properly. A worm MUST slant downward the WHOLE way. If not, liquid will pool, and pressure will build, and it is possible that your lifespan will likely be cut short.

NEVER run a still that builds up pressure.

H.

i think you guys may have miss read that post he says

Then you hook up the output water from your liebig to the input pf the worm and run the output of the worm to your cooling tank

much how i use my pre-heater a coil of pipe that the output water from the hot side of my lieberg condenser goes through i simply drop this in my next batch tobe run

Thanks for pointing that out abs. Yes, I did misread, and now do agree that if you are exchanging the heat from the coolant 'waste' water from your liebig, then reclaiming the heat power within that coolant water in this method works just fine.

When I read the word worm, I totally missed that this worm was not being used to condense the vapor. Using a heat exchanger coil in the manner WhiteLightening listed, will work just fine.

H.

Progress update on my new 100L Pot Still....
what do yas think ?

I useds a low pressure 4 ring burner from Bromic.com.au,
overall Dia 328mm.
The idea was to distribute the heat evenly over a larger surface are to eliminate
scorching.


I used a 100L BOP I fabricated an outside jacket for the BOP to slide into snugly
with an air gap of approx 12mm or 1/2" around the pot, the outside jacket seals
around the pot with no venting at the top this will trap the rising heat and create
an oven around the pot heating the liquid from the sides like a double boiler.


I performed 2 tests on cold water starting at 17c

The first test brought 100L of water to boil in 45min on a low to med flame
with the Pot sitting on the burner, approx 20mm gap between pot and burner jet.

The second test I increased the distance between the burner jet and bottom of
pot to approx 70mm.
I started on the low to med flame I took approx 2hrs to bring the water to boil me
then reduce the flame to a point where the burners just stayed lit the water
continued to boil without any problems even with the lid off.


With only 1 large burner ring running on low the temp at the top is 95c.


2/3 of the way down the temp is reading 107c.


Just under halfway the temp reads 141c.


And around the base of the inner pot the temp is at 300c.


I have only the outside large burner running and it’s turned right down to a point that it’s
almost turns off, "flame is upside down", you can just see the burner flame this is
more then sufficient to simmer the pot once it reaches boil.


Anyway I thought id continue with throwing in some corn and do a 100L mash
I simmered the corn for approx 3hrs using next to no gas, there where no signs of
scorching corn on the bottom of the pot.


I was waiting for the temp to drop so I can add the malted barley but the double
wall was now acting like an insulator and it dropped only 1 deg C in an hour
getting past midnight so I though ill pack it up and reheat it in the morning and drop
the malted barley, closed the lid and thru on a couple of thick blankets and went
to bed.
Got up 7hrs latter opened the lid and it was still at 88 deg C the corn starch had almost
completely dissolved and liquefied I had a fan blowing into the mash and also added cold
water to bring it down to 66 C to drop the malted barley.


When I finish doing my wash I put this copper lid on the pot and it becomes a 100L pot still.


These are the clasps I am using to hold down the copper lid.
http://www.protex.com/

I am going to drill 6x 6mm or 1/4" holes evenly space around the top of the
outside jacket to let some hot air escape in an attempt to lower the temp at the
base of the pot and I believe this will also raise the temp around the top of the pot.

To me this test shows there is no need to use double boilers to prevent scorching.


I picked up a SS swimingpool filter lid today, perfect size, so i can
seal the lid to the pot i tacked a flat ring to the inside of the lid with
a 4mm roundbar around the inside and outside of the ring.


i didnt take a pic of outside roundbar ring in place, but the idea is
that i pour soft silicone RTV rubber in the gap for a fixed oring seal
i will take another pic later when I pour the silicone and its finnished.


I tig'd the lot aroune the outside rim of the lid so it forms a seal.
i finaly got the togles i orderd but the idiots sent the wrong ones..
so i moded these and i will replace em when the ones i wanted come.


the hole on the left is not on centre so i have to fill it and drill another but
i will be welding these two 2.5" or 75mm dia triclova ferules to the top.
the centre hole will be used for the stiring motor drive and the righ one
will be for vapor output.

on the left "not pictured" i have a 5" dairy ferule that will go there, they
have a big nut instead of the butterfly clamps on the triclova, that will
be my fill lid so i dont have to crack the lid, i will be placing a 2" drain
tube at the bottom of the pot.


This is the geard motor i picked up, 5 RPM, still working on how i will
mount it exactly, it will be used to drive a bottom stiring arm, but this
is what i have in mind..
I will drill a hole through a triclova endcap for the drive shaft and weld
mounting brackets for the motor.
I first need to find a suitable seal for the shaft before i start.


this is a view of the motor from the bottom that will drive
the stiring arm.

all of the parts for the stiring arm will be made from copper
the idea is the copper wont damage the SS because its softer.
it will be centred into a bush inside the drain pipe and extend to
the top of the pot.

the shaft will be copper with a female square bush at the top to mate
with the drive shaft, the drive shaft will also be square and be able
to slide 12" inside the stiring arm shaft bush.

the idea is to use the same motor for distilling and mashing.
when mashing i have a round disc i will use as a lid that i can
clamp into place with the togles, and i will cut a flap into it
so i can open it like a lid. the motor will mount on top of the lid
in the same way using a triclova clamp.

i have worked out a way to crate a seal for the stirer by using a tube
over the shaft submerged in the wash and welded to the triclover endcap

i will post a picture when i get around to maing that part..

This is looking very good, indeed.

With all the heat retention, you'll be able to bring it up to mashing temp and then the long cool down will take care of the rest (mash rest, get it...?).

I think I'll move to Oz when I retire.... Ya'll are having all the fun.

Impressive. I like it.

the book "practical distillation" say otherwise.. a thumper has the inlet tube under the liquid and a doubler does not.. as far as i remember its been awhile since i had a look in the book so i maybe wrong

If the inlet tube is not under the liquid, it then becomes a slobber box.

Hawke wrote:If the inlet tube is not under the liquid, it then becomes a slobber box.

Or a puke barrel but I have heard thumpers called doublers also. Some of the old timers here also called the thumper a condenser.

thought id update where she is up to..

i have been a busy and in the mean time i have been collecting bits and pieces to do more stuff to it..

but this is where i am up to at the moment

decoy wrote:
I used a 100L BOP I fabricated an outside jacket for the BOP to slide into snugly
with an air gap of approx 12mm or 1/2" around the pot, the outside jacket seals
around the pot with no venting at the top this will trap the rising heat and create
an oven around the pot heating the liquid from the sides like a double boiler.

I believe what you have done here, is created a trap that will hold some heat, but after a short while, what you are simply doing is have the heat from the flame spilling outside of the bottom outer lip, and then your double boiler ends up acting like an insulator to these gases that have escaped.

I think you would get much better heating, IF you had venting at the top. You want those hot gases to be forced down that 12mm channel between the boiler and the outside. I would even insulate the outside so the only direction the heat can travel is into your pot. I know this is the design for many things, such as a rocket furnace, or many wind screen setups designed for minimal fuel usage. They route gases, and vent them at the top.

I think your temp readings (pix deeper in your original post), certainly show this, due to the huge heat gradient. The top gets little benefit. If this was vented, the bottom would not be so hot (I think most of this heat is spilling over from the bottom of the lip), and the top and middle of the pot would be much hotter.

When running on a slow simmer, can you feel (or even see) the escaping hot gases past the bottom lip? If so, that is energy that simply does not get a chance to be used at all. Of course, when you vent, there will be hot gases escaping from the upper vents, and that does not get a chance to be used also. However, you have to hope that those gases have been pushed up through the jacket, and have given off a lot of their power into your wash, prior to being vented.

Just my $.02 worth, but I think you are getting only part benefit that your double wall 'could' get.

H.

its somting i have been playing with i initially tried with 4 sets of 10mm holes set 90 deg around the outside
i found it lowers the bottom temp a fair bit and raises the top a bit the startup was faster but i was not happy to run the gas higher through out the whole run
i hae been thinking placing a ring around the outside to open and close the opening size
another thing the vent holes helped with was there was a bit of moisture that builds up under the pot that plays havoc with the flames but it stops once the pot warms up.


but without the holes i keep the gas almost off and she boils nice without using much gas
if you take a close look in this picture.
there is not much heat the blows escapes from underneath more so radiant heat of the walls
i was even thinking about wrapping a fire blanket or something around the outside to stop heat escaping


what will be more beneficial is when i finish the motorised stirrer.

decoy wrote:its somting i have been playing with i initially tried with 4 sets of 10mm holes set 90 deg around the outside
i found it lowers the bottom temp a fair bit and raises the top a bit the startup was faster but i was not happy to run the gas higher through out the whole run
i hae been thinking placing a ring around the outside to open and close the opening size

I think that if you were to put holes at the top, to get the max affect you would also have to restrict the air flow in the bottom also. This is like in the rocket stove. It restricts the bottom flow, and allows flue gases to vent around the pot.

In your current setup, it might not be bad to totally block the bottom, and run a tube to right under the burner. Then you could have a flap built that you can use to adjust the size of the opening. I think getting the proper intake of air, and proper outflow of air (i.e. the intake and outlet holes both being able to be adjusted in size), would allow you to run the heat really low, or to crank it up.

As it looks in the pic, if you had 4 sets of holes that big, you probably had a pretty big draft overall. Might have simply been to much draft, and like you found out, it may have made you run a pretty hot flame the hole time. I am just tossing out ideas. I have no practicle experience (yet) on exactly how the size of the vent holes (vs the amount of bottom draft being open), maximizes the heat used.

H.

yeah i was tossing both ways around but just left it for now as it was working as it is and i wanted to do a few runs
might even seal the bottom up and make it into a double boiler as the gas burner is making it dificult to cut a drain hole in..

One side note:

The bottom temp of your current setup (where you showed 300° C, is hot enough to melt many soft solders. So if this setup had been made from copper or even if you had soldered the stainless, then the current method you run would not be good for that.

Just tossing this out for anyone else looking to replicate what Decoy has done.

The temp on the bottom of the boiler will be no where near 300°C, because the liquid on the other side will wick away the heat, but the bottom of that heat shield section CAN get much hotter, since it does not have the huge heat sink of the liquid. But if this had been brazed together, or welded, then there is nothing to worry about with temps that low.

H.

PS, I don't think I have said so yet on this thread, so I will say it here. Decoy, that is a hell of a nice looking setup, and like you said, appears to be a damn fine low fuel consumption method.

thanx Husker

i work with computers and electronics all day this is theraputic i just take my time and chip away at it slowly..
i have made and destroyerd a few stills by trying stuff, but i have lerned a lot along the path..
all my joints are tig welded ss-ss ss-cu cu-cu etci have only done 2 silversolder joints on the condenser..

thanx again..

Just a bump now that you're back.

That's my old faithful 100L Stainless pot with reflux column.