Propionic acid

[Jimbo]

Its a good thought Corene, I had the same thought. The first yeast pitched was a couple months old harvested quart from a beer, split between 2 13g ferments. Didnt take, so I openned a brick of bakers and sprinkled liberally. 2 more days still nothin. Brix reading not moving. No bubbles or krausen. Shit, then I thought maybe the bakers is bad, haha, its been in the fridge for almost a year so I harvested fresh from a new batch of beer and added that. Nada. Nada. Shit.

This weekend Im gonna try rinsing some cracked corn and giving bourbon another go. And also another round of flour wash (did you see that thread?) so I have something to run if the corn shits out again. Im having fun with this germinating wheat too so thats on the agenda some time soon also.

[S-Cackalacky]

This has turned into a very important thread - something to definitely look out for when purchasing grain products.

Jimbo, I don't think anyone has reported back on the rinse and use idea yet. It will be interesting to hear how that works out.

S-C

[corene1]

This has turned into a very important thread - something to definitely look out for when purchasing grain products.

Jimbo, I don't think anyone has reported back on the rinse and use idea yet. It will be interesting to hear how that works out.

S-C

I think you have something there! Since my first adventure into AG mashing almost a year ago I have always rinsed my grain. It is just second nature now. My first mash was a corn and malted barley concoction and I used feed corn from the feed store. I put it in the boiling water and it immediately turned a murky dirt color. Then it hit me , They really don't do much cleaning on livestock feed , so I have rinsed ever since. Put my grain in a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and rinse it in a bucket of warm water. My recent batch that has oats that were treated with the propionic acid is still working well. It is bubbling slow but it is also day 5. Maybe that will help Jimbos corn mash.

[Jimbo]

OK friends wish me luck. I cooked up a batch of bourbon today. cracked corn and red wheat washed thoroughly, yuk cant believe I havent been washing this stuff. Corene youre not kidding about the grime.

Here's how it came together.

5 parts cracked corn
1 part red wheat (unmalted)
1 part malted belgian wheat
1 part 2 row barley malt

1 gallon water for every 3 lbs grain
5 ml lactic acid per every 5g water (I didnt have any backset)
2 tsp gypsum per every 5g water

US-05 yeast. 1.062 starting gravity

ill report back on whether this stuff takes off, or stalls again. Im hoping washing is the trick or ive got a lot of compost fodder here.

[Bohunk]

Jimbo, I'm going to be watching this close. I bought a bag of cracked corn this morning, the label was clean so I don't think it had any funky stuff on it. I'm going to cook 15 lbs of this corn, and add 5 lbs of malted barley.
Keep your post updated so I can tell how you did.

The Ole Bohunk

[Jimbo]

I am very happy to report, soon as I opened the door to my workshop/brewroom in the basement i knew it was successful. There's no mistaking the beautful delicious smell of a mash happily bubbling away. i pitched yeast last night, half quart of S-05 sludge harvested. Today the barrel has a nice foamy krausen on top, the yeast seem very happy with the meal I prepared them.

bohunk, the corn I buy doesnt say anything on the label either. Cracked Corn, and protein content. All it says.

I washed it in buckets, half bucket at a time, fill the bucket with water, churn up, sieve off the floaties with a sieve and pour through another screen. Ill be doing this from now on with all feed grain I buy.

cheers

[LWTCS]

Wtg Jimbo.

[Bohunk]

Glad to hear your corn is working. I have three electric stills, so heating water is easy and quick. I plan to heat some water to near boiling, put the corn in my beer making mash tun, and pour the hot water on the corn. Then I'll hook a hose up to the still and to the bottom of the mash tun, let steam from the still bubble up through the corn for a couple hours. I can send you some pictures if you want.

The Ole Bohunk

[Jimbo]

Thanks Larry, I was gettin worried for a bit there. All normal again, phew! Gotsta wash this feed quality stuff, its grimy, and God knows what they put on it to keep it from gettin funky in the damp weather.

Bohunk, yes that sounds very interesting, post up a picture

[Jimbo]

Update: Definitely no issues fermenting, it dropped from 1.062 to 1.004 in just under 3 days, and doubt its done, Ill run it over the weekend and give a last update.

[S-Cackalacky]

Update: Definitely no issues fermenting, it dropped from 1.062 to 1.004 in just under 3 days, and doubt its done, Ill run it over the weekend and give a last update.

Jimbo, just to be clear - these successful ferments are with the same batch of grains you were having problems with before you started washing - right?

S-C

[Jimbo]

yes sir. Last run to the feedstore was 3 bags of corn. last 2 bags of corn are in the compost. was really starting to piss me off.

[corene1]

Sounds like things are all good again, congratulations!

[2goose]

Damn, glad I asked

[Jimbo]

Now that this conundrum is solved Im off to the races again. Picked up 3 more bags and did another batch like last weeks, except sour mash style adding the grains from last week after straining out the wash. It amazing how much stuff fits in a 55g barrel.

Figures now that we know where the issue was the feedstore changed suppliers. New cracked corn is 100% better, much smaller crack, very consistent, virtually no whole kernals, and 'washed and sorted'. I washed it anyway, but it was not grimy at all.

Edit: BTW, that washed batch went from 1.062 to 0.998 in 6 days. 8.3% ABV. Its settling, will do the runs tomorrow.

Cheers, great thread, saved my ass. from recognizing the problem, to Corene's recommendation to wash. Works beautifully.

[corene1]

Now that this conundrum is solved Im off to the races again. Picked up 3 more bags and did another batch like last weeks, except sour mash style adding the grains from last week after straining out the wash. It amazing how much stuff fits in a 55g barrel.

Figures now that we know where the issue was the feedstore changed suppliers. New cracked corn is 100% better, much smaller crack, very consistent, virtually no whole kernals, and 'washed and sorted'. I washed it anyway, but it was not grimy at all.

Edit: BTW, that washed batch went from 1.062 to 0.998 in 6 days. 8.3% ABV. Its settling, will do the runs tomorrow.

Cheers, great thread, saved my ass. from recognizing the problem, to Corene's recommendation to wash. Works beautifully.

Well maybe not. I just had my first major screw up. The mash I made with the grain that had the Propionic acid on the oats started at 1.062 and only finished at 1.010 after 14 days. I am guessing it didn't stop fermentation just put it out of whack a bit. I was going to strip it today and when I poured the cleared mash into the boiler it foamed like it had some carbonation in it. As it came up to temperature I got a couple of drops and then a fountain of wash pouring out of the condenser, sever puking. I have never had this happen before, it dumped out 3 quarts of liquid in about 2 minuets. I shut the heat off and checked everything to make sure there were no blockages and started it back up very slowly. Again I got a couple of drips and then some product started to flow only about 50% ABV and oily . The little bubbles that form when the distillate hit the jar had a little rainbow glaze on them and wouldn't break. It smelled bad and didn't taste good at all. If I put any good heat at all to it at all it would foam up. Don't know what went wrong, maybe a bacteria in the mash so it all got thrown out. Doing the same mash today but with different oats, We will see what happens. Maybe it sat to long after it finished. I strained it and only let it sit 36 hours in the shed, it is cold in there so the settled mash was only at 45 degrees. It was a very simple grain bill Barley , Wheat and Oats.

[Jimbo]

Thats interesting Corene. Sounds like a hot break from the protein, read this http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

But, since ive used oats and similar mash bills inclined to say thats not it. Picked up another bag of rolled oats with the latest load of corn too I guess youre fermenting on the grain with them oats in there which means youre squeezing out the mash, with he mop wringer? All that commotion should be releasing any CO2 stuck in there. Any chance your mash was under some pressure? Did you seal it up during any of the 2 weeks? If so, even a couple psi will push a lot of CO2 into the liquid. Short of that, do you use foaming no rinse santizers like starsan? (I always rinse anyway, figuring any yeast that does touch a molecule of that crap isint gonna be too happy. GOtta have happy yeast) thats a long shot but Im just putting anythign out there I can think of. Since you say it tasted bad, sure sounds like a bug got you and the bacteria or its byproducts caused the mess. Sterilize living hell out of everything it might have touched with a double strength starsan or iodophor or something similarly strong. Let us know how round 2 goes.

Edit: Another thought. Im not a fan of letting the mashes sit. These are all grains, not sugar heads where all the ingrediants were at some point hotter than pasteurization temp (160). The bacteria on the barley that you mashed in with is still in there and happy. Those bacteria will start to make a happy meal out of the yeast trub after fermentation is over. Ive read, and believe, to not screw around after fermentation is over and run it within a couple days. Id bet this is what happened.

[midwest shinner]

Man I'm so glad i found this thread, but hope i don't end up having to dump my batch. I've got a batch of partial mash corn whisky (which started as an ag, but got too little sugars from mashing the corn)that started at 1.068 and after 10 days is finally nearly finished (like 1.005). This is much slower than i expected especially with the decent amount of yeast i pitched. I will have to double check my cracked corn i suppose. Thanks for the heads up y'all

[Jimbo]

1.068 to 1.005 in 10 days is fine.

[corene1]

Thats interesting Corene. Sounds like a hot break from the protein, read this http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

But, since ive used oats and similar mash bills inclined to say thats not it. Picked up another bag of rolled oats with the latest load of corn too I guess youre fermenting on the grain with them oats in there which means youre squeezing out the mash, with he mop wringer? All that commotion should be releasing any CO2 stuck in there. Any chance your mash was under some pressure? Did you seal it up during any of the 2 weeks? If so, even a couple psi will push a lot of CO2 into the liquid. Short of that, do you use foaming no rinse santizers like starsan? (I always rinse anyway, figuring any yeast that does touch a molecule of that crap isint gonna be too happy. GOtta have happy yeast) thats a long shot but Im just putting anythign out there I can think of. Since you say it tasted bad, sure sounds like a bug got you and the bacteria or its byproducts caused the mess. Sterilize living hell out of everything it might have touched with a double strength starsan or iodophor or something similarly strong. Let us know how round 2 goes.

Edit: Another thought. Im not a fan of letting the mashes sit. These are all grains, not sugar heads where all the ingrediants were at some point hotter than pasteurization temp (160). The bacteria on the barley that you mashed in with is still in there and happy. Those bacteria will start to make a happy meal out of the yeast trub after fermentation is over. Ive read, and believe, to not screw around after fermentation is over and run it within a couple days. Id bet this is what happened.

I would have to agree with you Jimbo, It had to get a bug, It had off smells from about the 3rd day on and yes I let it sit to clear for about 36 hours. I do use star san on everything . I first wash with hot water and a bit of bleach, then rinse well and then use the star san at 160 degrees. I keep a bucket full handy for all my stirring equipment also. I would bet there was something in the oats I bought, don't know if it was the acid or not. I did a mash this weekend with the exact same grains except I used different oats and it is fermenting away with that really nice bakery smell right now. I really don't think it was Co2. as it was bounced and squeezed a bunch, plus when I got my still cooled down and running alcohol it was extremely oily. Also there should have been only so much Co2 in it and I could make it foam any time I wanted by turning up the heat. After I got 2 half pint jars of junk. I just started playing with the heat. Like I said turn the heat up I got foam turn it down it went away . I did this 3 times . There is no way it could have stored that much Co2. The new mash Is doing great so I am happy .
This is the longest fermentation I have ever had also (14 days) . So there is a possibility that a couple things could have gone wrong. Propionic acid residue may have slowed the fermentation to a point that left is susceptible to the bacteria, or even made the yeast sick and they produced something else along with the alcohol and Co2. Just have to mark it off and keep going. By the way the local birds are loving those oats.

[midwest shinner]

Sorry Jimbo after going over my notes it was actually 13 days not 10, and it is still working. it went from 1.005 to about 1.002 since yesterday. anyway, just thought it would work faster with 40 grams of bakers yeast in a 13 gal mash at a constant 72°f its just moving along much slower than i figured it would.

[Jimbo]

Bad news guys. We dont have this puzzle solved yet. This batch I cooked up last weekend is stalled. Corn and wheat were washed. Mash aerated well. Large yeast pitch. bla bla. And its just sitting there, stuck. gravity not dropping. Last batch was essentially done in 3 days, the one hasnt moved.

There are 2 things I did different this week from last. This time I added half a bucket of the old spent grain at pitch time. More to get the extra fresh yeast in there ( in addition to the trub from the settling bucket, which smelled fresh and good). I really doubt this caused any problems. The second thing I did different is let the mash sit overnight, before finishing the cooling in the morning with a wort chiller and pitching yeast. In the AM there was a thick 3" head of foam, Ive seen this before, and can only attribute to live stuff on the malt. Everything else in there was sterilized during grain cook. I usually do it this way, so its not so unique. But the last batch that was so successful last week, I cooled for an hour with a wort chiller same day. No time for the foamy curiosity to create. And then pitched yeast which took off immediately.

Suppose there's something in rigorous bacteria growth overnight thats inhibiting yeast? Note there were 2 different malts, wheat malt (Dingemans from Belgium) and 2 row (Canadian). Im a little worried about the belgian wheat malt, Belgium is famous for its sourbeers and crazy wild things about.

This weekend, after I dump this batch, 80 lbs total of grain Im gonna try another. Only this time will cool rapidly after mash in, and pitch yeast.

God damn this! Anyone have new thoughts please chime in.

[heartcut]

When I buy a bag it's gets a blowoff jar set in it (with the bag in a garbage can) for a couple days to flood it with CO2. If your infection is aerobic, that'll kill it- also offs weevils and such. If the little buggers are anerobic, at least it won't hurt. Sure sounds frustrating. Good luck.

[S-Cackalacky]

Because I'm not an AG person (yet), I'm a little clueless. I assume an iodine test showed complete conversion and OG was good. If you suspect some kind of infection, what if you took a few gallons of what you have, pasteurize it, pitch new yeast, and see if there's any action. That whole foaming thing seems a little suspect if it's something you don't normally experience.

S-C

Posted while Heartcut was posting.

[Jimbo]

Ya gravity is fine S-C. I use the same malt to make beer, and no issues, but that wort is boiled for an hour immediately after mashing. Its gotta be that mystery foam. I thought maybe water, but I use the same water to make beer and never had a stuck ferment, ever.

I bought another spool of 3/8 copper. Gonna extend my wort chiller so I can cool these barrels of goo faster, and try cooling right after mash.

[corene1]

You got me scratching my head. You say you put in 1/2 bucket of spent grains into the mash when you pitched your yeast. Where had the spent grains been stores at . Even though you couldn't smell anything bad doesn't mean there wasn't some sort of bacteria just starting to form and then the fresh warm mash kicked it into overdrive. Could the spent grain have lowered the PH a bit too much and stalled fermentation? Wouldn't it act like using backset in a new mash? What grains were common to this mash and the failed mash prior to this one? That would be where I would look for bacteria. As you mentioned one of your malted grains is notorious for the little buggers. I think if I were going to do another mash I would not use any grains that were common to the failed mashes. I would start completely fresh and work from there just to get a fresh starting point. Maybe do some small test batches using all new grains with only 1 of the component being from the earlier failed mashes in each one. Make a 2 gallons mash with all fresh grains and the 1 suspect grain and see what happens. Then you wouldn't waste as much grain plus you could combine all the small successful mashes and make a batch of Jimbos wild card whiskey!
I really don't think letting the mash sit overnight caused a problem as that is what I do also. It is usually still 100 plus in the morning when I cool and pitch the yeast. The new mash I started this weekend with the new oats is finished as we speak so it had to have been some residue on the other bag of oats, as that is the only difference in the two mashes. I will keep thinking about the mash problem you are having.

[Jimbo]

I would never use grain from a failed run. It was from the uber successful run last week we been talking sbout. Used same day. Did that strip and made another batch on its heels

[corene1]

This is really a dilemma. I knew you wouldn't use old bad grains in a new mash I was just curious if the fresh spent grains may have had just a touch of a bacteria starting to form and then mixing it with your fresh mash could have accelerated it.

[Jimbo]

this is really starting to drive me nuts. Tempted to scoop up some of this crapped out stalled shit and send it somewhere for analysis. I would if I knew where to send it. Something in there is zapping the yeast. Same yeast ive used literally hundreds of times successfully in whiskies and beers. I know the yeast is good, the mash was good, same water i brew beer with, same raw wheat as last week, the corn was from a different supplier, but nice and clean, cleaner, but I still washed it, same wheat malt, same 2 row, same lactic acid and gypsum pH treatment. Im gonna stop typing now cause a whole mess of 4 letter words are about to roll out. &^%^**(%#@!!!!!!!!!!!

Im determined to solve this, but first Ive got another 80 lbs of grain and 26 gallons of dead sweet wort to haul to the damn compost. again. Man! Last weeks run was textbnook, sweet smelling delicious mash fermented out clean fast and nice. Now boom. WTF

[corene1]

First go get a big hammer and beat the crap out of something till you are sweating. Then sit down have a drink and ponder your situation. I feel your frustrations clear out here on the west coast. The hardest part is the fact, if I read it correctly, that the only difference is the new corn from the successful run and the failed run. You are using the same fermenter for both and it is clean. I have 2 fermenters and one has a cavity that was caused from a manufacturing flaw. I have to always make sure that when I clean it nothing old get left in there. I would still only make some small batches until I found the culprit.