Ultrasonic Lab Trials
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:33 am
(Note: this was originally posted in the Nuclear thread but I'm starting a new thread here)
Hi there, Badger here.
There has been quite a bit of discussion about the “nuclear process” and many many pages of anecdotal experiences, mostly positive. I was interested in acquiring some objective data to complement what has already been posted. I recently visited a local distillery where the head distiller is a complete chemistry geek (MSU Distilling Program grad student, thesis on barrel aging, etc). I reached out to him on this topic and was pleasantly surprised when he agreed to run samples through his lab and gas spectrometer. Below, please find our emails and in the next post, I’ll present my initial thoughts on possible trials.
(Note: I’ve redacted names from the emails to keep his distillery from appearing to approve of home distilling)
-----------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:13 PM, BADGER wrote:
Dear Xxxxx,
My name is BADGER and we talked the night that the Homebrewers Guild took a tour of the distillery. I was the “home enthusiast” who discussed with you whether it was possible to hit azeotrope with something other than a 30+plate still. You challenged me to bring in a sample of a suspected azeotrope to put through your lab. While I don’t have that, I do have another topic that might interest you.
Currently, several of the online forums who geek out on this kind of thing are discussing the use of either microwave or ultrasonic cleaning to “smooth” or speed up/improve aging (some are doing it just to distillate while some are using wood chips, etc). While no distillery that I’m aware of uses microwaves to improve their spirit, there are at least a couple that seem to be using a version of ultrasonic cleaning. While there is general agreement that these processes improve taste, there was some question as to whether there is an actual quantifiable chemical effect taking place and, if so, what that is. Unfortunately, we don’t have access to the kind of lab you use every day.
If, and only if, the results of such an experiment would interest you (I think I remember you saying you did your thesis on aging), I’m wondering if you’d be willing to put several identical samples (untreated, microwave treatment, ultrasonic treatment, for instance) through your lab to see a side-by-side chemical comparison of the various treatments.
I realize this is fairly brazen of me and you are a very busy person. I’ll completely understand if, for any number of reasons, you aren’t interested. However, I figured it never hurts to ask. You seemed very open-minded about being creative with the art of distilling and I thought that, just maybe, this would appeal to your own inner geek.
In any case, thanks again for a fun and informative tour. I can’t wait to see all the fun things that come out of [Xxxxxx Distillery] in the coming years.
Sincerely,
BADGER
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On May 10, 2013, at 5:46 PM, "XXXXXX wrote:
Hi BADGER,
Sorry for the delay and what will probably be a short response. I am totally interested in this. I would love to run samples and right now we are setting up our GC with the help of Kara Hulce, who was also on the tour. She is our new lab intern and I think we should absolutely run these samples.
I am aware of Terressentia and their ultrasound process. They asked me to help validate their work and I took a look at their website and declined. I can think of at least two or three improvements that are possible and we shall examine them.
Start pulling your samples together and let us know when you might be ready to run them.
Best,
XXXXXX
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On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 10:25 PM, BADGER wrote:
That is great. Thanks so much!
I'll contact some people about getting the samples. In the meantime, what kind of parameters are we talking? Sample size? Are there certain protocols that need to be observed to avoid contaminated or otherwise compromised results? How many samples (I have no idea if the process is 5 min or 5 hours) are realistic?
My initial idea would be something like 8 samples:
1. control white spirit
2. microwaved white spirit (minor dose)
3. microwaved white spirit (major dose)
4. ultrasounded white spirit (minor dose or low power)
5. ultrasounded white spirit (major dose or high power)
6. white spirit microwaved with oak
7. white spirit ultrasounded with oak.
8. white spirit "traditionally" aged on oak.
Anecdotally, these processes both smooth plain spirit and speed the aging process on oak. We're interested in quantifying how exactly.
That said, there might be a different format (design of experiments?) or set of variables you are interested in exploring.
Finally, in case you want some background, the initial forum where these ideas were presented is here: http://forum.moderndistiller.com/viewto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... =34&t=1883
It then jumped to this, more established, forum: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38991
Like most forum threads, they are full of meandering conversations and deadends, but I think you'll get the general sense of the conversation in the first few pages.
Thanks again. I look forward to talking with you soon.
BADGER
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi BADGER,
Took a look through the forums. My first thoughts:
I like your sample schema. Our GC is set up to look for congeners primarily but we may pick up some ethyl esters as well, just haven't had enough time to look. Kara is looking into that over the coming weeks for a project we're working on anyway so we'll have some info on that shortly. I think it would be worth examining whether the effects are more pronounced at higher proofs. I thought I saw that someone had tried it at 80 but most were using barreling strength so let's make sure at least some of the samples are not diluted.
I would say the things we'll look for are reduction in congener concentration (I think that's was Terressentia was trying to show in their vodka) and corresponding increases in any ethyl esters we can pick up. We only need 50ml or so (2-5ml for gc, the rest to taste).
Let me know your timeline. We will probably have time to run some of these in June.
Thanks,
XXXXX
Hi there, Badger here.
There has been quite a bit of discussion about the “nuclear process” and many many pages of anecdotal experiences, mostly positive. I was interested in acquiring some objective data to complement what has already been posted. I recently visited a local distillery where the head distiller is a complete chemistry geek (MSU Distilling Program grad student, thesis on barrel aging, etc). I reached out to him on this topic and was pleasantly surprised when he agreed to run samples through his lab and gas spectrometer. Below, please find our emails and in the next post, I’ll present my initial thoughts on possible trials.
(Note: I’ve redacted names from the emails to keep his distillery from appearing to approve of home distilling)
-----------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:13 PM, BADGER wrote:
Dear Xxxxx,
My name is BADGER and we talked the night that the Homebrewers Guild took a tour of the distillery. I was the “home enthusiast” who discussed with you whether it was possible to hit azeotrope with something other than a 30+plate still. You challenged me to bring in a sample of a suspected azeotrope to put through your lab. While I don’t have that, I do have another topic that might interest you.
Currently, several of the online forums who geek out on this kind of thing are discussing the use of either microwave or ultrasonic cleaning to “smooth” or speed up/improve aging (some are doing it just to distillate while some are using wood chips, etc). While no distillery that I’m aware of uses microwaves to improve their spirit, there are at least a couple that seem to be using a version of ultrasonic cleaning. While there is general agreement that these processes improve taste, there was some question as to whether there is an actual quantifiable chemical effect taking place and, if so, what that is. Unfortunately, we don’t have access to the kind of lab you use every day.
If, and only if, the results of such an experiment would interest you (I think I remember you saying you did your thesis on aging), I’m wondering if you’d be willing to put several identical samples (untreated, microwave treatment, ultrasonic treatment, for instance) through your lab to see a side-by-side chemical comparison of the various treatments.
I realize this is fairly brazen of me and you are a very busy person. I’ll completely understand if, for any number of reasons, you aren’t interested. However, I figured it never hurts to ask. You seemed very open-minded about being creative with the art of distilling and I thought that, just maybe, this would appeal to your own inner geek.
In any case, thanks again for a fun and informative tour. I can’t wait to see all the fun things that come out of [Xxxxxx Distillery] in the coming years.
Sincerely,
BADGER
-----------------------------------------------------------
On May 10, 2013, at 5:46 PM, "XXXXXX wrote:
Hi BADGER,
Sorry for the delay and what will probably be a short response. I am totally interested in this. I would love to run samples and right now we are setting up our GC with the help of Kara Hulce, who was also on the tour. She is our new lab intern and I think we should absolutely run these samples.
I am aware of Terressentia and their ultrasound process. They asked me to help validate their work and I took a look at their website and declined. I can think of at least two or three improvements that are possible and we shall examine them.
Start pulling your samples together and let us know when you might be ready to run them.
Best,
XXXXXX
-----------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 10:25 PM, BADGER wrote:
That is great. Thanks so much!
I'll contact some people about getting the samples. In the meantime, what kind of parameters are we talking? Sample size? Are there certain protocols that need to be observed to avoid contaminated or otherwise compromised results? How many samples (I have no idea if the process is 5 min or 5 hours) are realistic?
My initial idea would be something like 8 samples:
1. control white spirit
2. microwaved white spirit (minor dose)
3. microwaved white spirit (major dose)
4. ultrasounded white spirit (minor dose or low power)
5. ultrasounded white spirit (major dose or high power)
6. white spirit microwaved with oak
7. white spirit ultrasounded with oak.
8. white spirit "traditionally" aged on oak.
Anecdotally, these processes both smooth plain spirit and speed the aging process on oak. We're interested in quantifying how exactly.
That said, there might be a different format (design of experiments?) or set of variables you are interested in exploring.
Finally, in case you want some background, the initial forum where these ideas were presented is here: http://forum.moderndistiller.com/viewto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... =34&t=1883
It then jumped to this, more established, forum: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38991
Like most forum threads, they are full of meandering conversations and deadends, but I think you'll get the general sense of the conversation in the first few pages.
Thanks again. I look forward to talking with you soon.
BADGER
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi BADGER,
Took a look through the forums. My first thoughts:
I like your sample schema. Our GC is set up to look for congeners primarily but we may pick up some ethyl esters as well, just haven't had enough time to look. Kara is looking into that over the coming weeks for a project we're working on anyway so we'll have some info on that shortly. I think it would be worth examining whether the effects are more pronounced at higher proofs. I thought I saw that someone had tried it at 80 but most were using barreling strength so let's make sure at least some of the samples are not diluted.
I would say the things we'll look for are reduction in congener concentration (I think that's was Terressentia was trying to show in their vodka) and corresponding increases in any ethyl esters we can pick up. We only need 50ml or so (2-5ml for gc, the rest to taste).
Let me know your timeline. We will probably have time to run some of these in June.
Thanks,
XXXXX
He has a freakin' humungous continuous still...he wouldn't even miss it! 