Jimbo's Wheat Flour AG Experiment

[Massassi]

i know this is a necro thread but i still have to comment.

ive been toying with the idea of a flour ferment for years and am really excited that somoene has done the R&D. this sounds like an excellent option for producing vodka and genevieve. I'm impressed at the pricing as well. once i have some spare fermenter space this is on my list of projects!

Thanks for sharing this with up Jimbo

[Jimbo]

whats a necro thread?

be careful of scorching. Ive had mixed luck, sometimes fine, other times scorched on internal electric elements with these flour based washes. be great with a bain marie or steam boiler.

When it works its great for vodka.

[Massassi]

necro as in necromancy ie, its brought back from the dead as a zombie or some such.

the scorching does worry me. have you tried mixing the sediment/sludge back up with your paint mixer so as to spread it out between both the runs?

whats a bain marie boiler?

[Jimbo]

problem with the flour mash is it really doesnt settle. Good thing is the carbs are all readily available to the enzymes, and yeast, so it mostly gets gobbled up. But its still a thin slurry, like motor oil when you pour it in the boiler. I had 50% success, 2 runs went well, 2 runs scorched, damned if I know why, ran them both the same.

[Massassi]

How low in your boiler is your element? It's a single? I wonder if two would help if I ran them super low?

[The Kitten King]

whats a bain marie boiler?

Fancy term for water bath or double boiler.

[Jimbo]

This hooch is 2 years old now, aging in jars with a charred white oak stick. Its delicious. The 'tortilla' flavor I mentioned below is gone and its now just smooth and delicious.

I still think this is a great recipe for vodka, but if you have the patience, makes a very fine whiskey it seems too.

[jedneck]

Not sure how my second barrel is gonna work for vodka. It stalled at 1.06ish and was sour. Still haven't got any pH strips. With the mash being like a melted milkshake I tried to run it. I collected about a cup of water. Drained boiler back into fermenter and added a good dose of oystershell. That seemed to bring pH back to a yeast friendly taste. Sweet and sticky, repitched yeast when it cooled down. Now waiting to see if it takes off.

[jedneck]

First repit didn't work. So I added another dose of ulti-ferm enzyme. ITS ALIVE. Thermometer must be off.

[zach]

I found a 25 lb bag of enriched flour for $6.19 and I thought I'd give this recipe a try. Making an all grain liquor for a lot less than cost of a sugar head was the primary appeal to me. I know I need a steam rig if this becomes a favorite recipe.

The conversion with the enzymes went well. I used about 22 lbs in 11 gallons. I've got the baker's yeast working for about two weeks at 70 F and am nearing completion as the taste is getting to be dry. It's got a good flavor so I'm hopeful.

The solution is kind of like a light oil. I've got a 5.5 gallon stockpot with a triple ply bottom for a boiler and an induction hot plate. I'm hoping to run it with a low enough heat setting to avoid scorching. I am thinking about adding some flat glass marbles as boiling chips for a more vigorous boil at the low heat setting. I'm also thinking about running three 3.75 gallons stripping runs to allow room for foaming.

Jimbo used an internal heating element and had mixed results. Has anyone else had experience with wheat flour using direct heat to the bottom of the boiler?

[zach]

The wheat flour gravy made a nice drop. I ran it in three runs.

The first run was clear liquid as the solids had settled. My final gravity was 0.995. I was unable to get an initial gravity.

The second run was a thick slurry. I did get a brown layer on the bottom of the boiler during this run, but it did not flavor the product.

In the third run I added feints from the first and second runs and had no scorching. The mixture was thinner than the second.

I kept the hearts from the first and second runs and did not re-run. The total yield after the third run and cuts is 5 quarts at 120 proof with a cost of around $1/quart. The flavor is delicious and very clean.

[Jimbo]

Nice! Congrats Zach.

[zach]

Thanks Jimbo for the idea! I'm tempted to drink this white it's so good.

The idea of all grain without the fuss of squeezing is great. The only downside is disposal of the slurry. I don't have access to a place to dump it outside and fear plumbing issues if I dump too much down the sewer.

[Jimbo]

Thanks Jimbo for the idea! I'm tempted to drink this white it's so good.

The idea of all grain without the fuss of squeezing is great. The only downside is disposal of the slurry. I don't have access to a place to dump it outside and fear plumbing issues if I dump too much down the sewer.

When Windy and I visited Koval distillery in Chicago we were surprised to see they basically do the same, grind all to a flour, ferment, still and guess where it ALL goes, yup right down the Chicago sewer system. Mind boggling that they are getting away with that.

[The Baker]

I worked for a while many years ago in a bakery that made some patent loaf through a highly mechanised system that poured a soft paste/ thick liquid into the baking pans.
when the foreman went on holiday his number two was in charge and sometimes buggered it up. And poured the whole damn lot down the sewer.

Geoff
P. S. If the bakers in a small bakery got the dough wrong they sometimes buried it in the back yard.
And by the time the boss came in the morning the dough had swollen, lifted the dirt off, and was there for all to see. G.

[Oldvine Zin]

When Windy and I visited Koval distillery in Chicago we were surprised to see they basically do the same, grind all to a flour, ferment, still and guess where it ALL goes, yup right down the Chicago sewer system. Mind boggling that they are getting away with that.

A bit like don't ask and don't tell, still surprised that that they are getting away with it, but in Chicago a backhanded hand shake goes a long ways

OVZ

[Salt Must Flow]

I know this is an older thread, but it is still relevant. IF there is a relatively high potential for scorching, what if one ran two 240V 5500W electric elements each at 50% power? That would reduce the potential for scorching by reducing the watt density of each element by half? I think I will do this and find out.

I've considered ways of clearing using Bentonite, Alum,other clearing agents and filtering, but I suspect that stripping on this flour/grain is inevitable to achieve the maximum goal with flour.

[ThomasBrewer]

Salt - You might consider taking that even further and using ULWD elements as well. They're only a few bucks more than the regular fold back style.

[Salt Must Flow]

Salt - You might consider taking that even further and using ULWD elements as well. They're only a few bucks more than the regular fold back style.

Yup, I have two ULWD elements

[still_stirrin]

… IF there is a relatively high potential for scorching, what if one ran two 240V 5500W electric elements each at 50% power?

That would reduce the potential for scorching by reducing the watt density of each element by half? I think I will do this and find out.

Great idea.

But, just be sure you have enough available current (circuit breaker capability) for the full 240VAC/5.5kW load. Otherwise, if you try to pull power for both elements from a single 30amp breaker, you run the risk of overloading the circuit and wiring even if you limit the power to the elements to 50% of their “rated” capacity. You don’t want to overdraw power (accidentally) and run the risk of an electrical fire in the household wiring.

I run two ULWD (4.5kW “foldback”) elements on separate circuits, each with it’s own breaker in the panel. I have control circuits on both, allowing me to balance the load to the household wiring. Neat and tidy and it really helps to lower the watt density in the boiler, reducing the potential to scorch a “not so clean” wash.
ss

[Salt Must Flow]

… IF there is a relatively high potential for scorching, what if one ran two 240V 5500W electric elements each at 50% power?

That would reduce the potential for scorching by reducing the watt density of each element by half? I think I will do this and find out.

Great idea.

But, just be sure you have enough available current (circuit breaker capability) for the full 240VAC/5.5kW load. Otherwise, if you try to pull power for both elements from a single 30amp breaker, you run the risk of overloading the circuit and wiring even if you limit the power to the elements to 50% of their “rated” capacity. You don’t want to overdraw power (accidentally) and run the risk of an electrical fire in the household wiring.

I run two ULWD (4.5kW “foldback”) elements on separate circuits, each with it’s own breaker in the panel. I have control circuits on both, allowing me to balance the load to the household wiring. Neat and tidy and it really helps to lower the watt density in the boiler, reducing the potential to scorch a “not so clean” wash.
ss

Yes, I have multiple 240V breakers in the service box, each with their own circuits and receptacles.

I will need to have a 2nd 2" ferrule TIG welded to my boiler. I have one controller already. I have a 2nd controller, an older project that is nearly complete. I will certainly give this a go once the 2nd controller is finished.

[Jimbo]

Sounds like a good idea. Even on a single 30A breaker and start low. Ramp slow and watch voltage/current. If you hit 30S by accident it will pop your breaker, not the end of the world

[Bradster68]

Am I missing something? Why did HB send a link to whey powder? Iv read through. Is this a private joke?

[Salt Must Flow]

Sounds like a good idea. Even on a single 30A breaker and start low. Ramp slow and watch voltage/current. If you hit 30S by accident it will pop your breaker, not the end of the world

That's interesting. I've never had that issue on a 30A breaker. I have once circuit wired to a 30A switch. I've switched my element on and it kicks off full blast without tripping its breaker. I have another circuit that I use my controller with. I've switched it on at 100% and it never tripped. I've even stepped the controller from 25% to 100% and nothing happened. It could just be that your local power is more unstable than mine or that breaker itself is on the fritz. I don't know.

[fzbwfk9r]

Boom, if you cook that raw wheat properly you shouldnt have any bacteria issues. It needs to be gelatinized, best way to do that is to pour boiling water over it and let it steep cook for a couple three hours. Temps will be above pasteurization temp in this process, so any bacteria will be killed..

I recently added another step to feed quality grains, washing. Boiling will pasteurize it, but not get rid of any anti fungals or whoknowswhats they put on feed grain. Mill it, fill a bucket half full with grain, then 3/4 with warm water. Stir it up with your hand, sift off the floaties and chaf and drain. Then put it in your mashtun/fermenter and pour the boiling water over it. When temp drops to 150 mash in.

In general 75/25 raw wheat/malted wheat makes a really fine drink. Im a big fan of 100% wheat whiskey.

I am having a bit of trouble visualizing this

You mill the wheat first, THEN wash it? wouldn't that remove a LOT of the starch that you want?
Would it work to wash the berries, dry thoroughly, then mill?
I am in wheat country, and can source wheat by the tonne, so I am always interested in wheat issues

as for Gelling, wheat gells at mash temps, but the boiling water should indeed sanitize it.
Why does this not work for corn? many have commented on corn being susceptible to infections. But every routine calls for hot enough temps to sanitize.

[Salt Must Flow]

Boom, if you cook that raw wheat properly you shouldnt have any bacteria issues. It needs to be gelatinized, best way to do that is to pour boiling water over it and let it steep cook for a couple three hours. Temps will be above pasteurization temp in this process, so any bacteria will be killed..

I recently added another step to feed quality grains, washing. Boiling will pasteurize it, but not get rid of any anti fungals or whoknowswhats they put on feed grain. Mill it, fill a bucket half full with grain, then 3/4 with warm water. Stir it up with your hand, sift off the floaties and chaf and drain. Then put it in your mashtun/fermenter and pour the boiling water over it. When temp drops to 150 mash in.

In general 75/25 raw wheat/malted wheat makes a really fine drink. Im a big fan of 100% wheat whiskey.

I am having a bit of trouble visualizing this

You mill the wheat first, THEN wash it? wouldn't that remove a LOT of the starch that you want?
Would it work to wash the berries, dry thoroughly, then mill?
I am in wheat country, and can source wheat by the tonne, so I am always interested in wheat issues

as for Gelling, wheat gells at mash temps, but the boiling water should indeed sanitize it.
Why does this not work for corn? many have commented on corn being susceptible to infections. But every routine calls for hot enough temps to sanitize.

No, if you read what he said again, you'll see that he washes feed quality grains first then he mills it.

[fzbwfk9r]

No, if you read what he said again, you'll see that he washes feed quality grains first then he mills it.

I was referring to this:

... Mill it, fill a bucket half full with grain, then 3/4 with warm water. Stir it up with your hand, sift off the floaties and chaf and drain. Then put it in your mashtun/fermenter and pour the boiling water over it. ...

If you read it again... he posted milling first, then washing, then into the fermenter...

I did not read it wrong.
That's why I asked.

[DaviesCountyBoozer]

Jimbo here is a version that I made using malted barley and unenriched, unbleached whole wheat flour...


WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR WASH can be expanded…

I heated my whole wheat flour (unbleached unenriched nothing added or removed whole wheat flour) up on a hot plate slowly with 6 beano tablets added along with the malted barley 1.5 pounds per 10 pounds of flour. got conversion upwards of 1.060... When i tried this and it was a rocket ferment for 28 gallons...

here ya go...


This has all ready been discussed in other forums, but I'll post it here as well. If you have no access to plain grains this is one of the cheapest mashes out there. This can also be distilled on grains with internal heating elements without scorching problems. To boot it off foaming is also minimal, I usually strip this one with 2kW internal element.

To make 25 liters of mash at ~1.060 SG:

4kg wheat flour
1kg malted and crushed barley
A pack of fresh baker's yeast (~25grams I think)

Mix flour + some 200g malt to 8 liters of 50C water. It should settle to about 40C. This first stage is needed to prevent flour from forming clumps.

Add 9 liters of boiling striking water and mix well. The mash should in a few minutes turn to liquid and the temperature settles at about 65C. This is gelatinization and first conversion rest. However, a large amount of starches remain unsoluble and a cooking is needed to break the chemical bonds.

Heat the mash to boiling while stirring continuously and let it boil for some 15 minutes. This is the labor intensive task, before boilign starts the mash thickens again considerably. Once the boiling starts it again turns to liquid after a while. Once it is liquidlike you can stop the boiling.

Cool the boiled mash to 65-67C and add the rest of the malt. Let it sit for one hour or a bit more while keeping it from cooling too much. A blanket or two around the mash tun helps. This is your final conversion rest.

After the hour is passed, fill the mash tun to 25 liters with cold water (if the mash is still in the boiling pot now is the time to transfer it) and let it cool to about 30C. Once it's cooled pitch the yeast and let it ferment.

There are very little solids in the mash apart from malt remains so it can be distilled on grains. If you have grain mill you can crush the malt to flour like composition to make things even better.

Wheat flour can be substituted with other flours, although I have no test results to share. Corn and rye seem to have higher gelatinization temperatures so they may require longer cooking time or somewhat higher temperature for the first conversion rest.

This produces somewhat light bodied Irish or grain neutral style whisk(e)y. By widening the middle cut you can retrieve more aroma if you like.

This recipe has been around since 2009 and is in the public domain.

I take no credit for this one but it had a nice clean whiskyish taste and it also distilled to a nice vodka...

Fully Silenced
Happy Stilling to you all ...

PS you can increase the SG by boosting it with sugar if you so desire... i would not go above 12% to maintain the great taste profile.

Silly me. I added water to the flour and cornmeal, then heated it. I THOUHHT I had stirred it sufficiently. Ugh. However, it made some pretty tasty dumplings. Oh well. Live and learn.

[TorrenAvien]

Anyone know how to estimate an OG with an all wheat flour grain bill using YLY? I'm brewing using YLY, and trying to develop the recipe into a ~12%. For what its worth, I've done the following:

• 95 L water
• 18 kg unbleached AP flour
• 3 kg rolled oats
• ~3-4 L of backset from a 1st generation of "Jesse's Fruity, Silky Vodka [1]" recipe
• An extra 30-60g of YLY, rehydrated at 97°F / 36°C
• A few multi-vitamins, similar to sugarheads.

I filled my fermenter ~15L of 20°C water in a bucket at a time. I stirred 3-4kg of flour with a drill + paint-stirrer each 15L in. Some very minor dough balls when I got lazy, nothing I'm concerned about. It's been 8 hours and its rocketing along. I ferment in an open vessel with a plastic wrap as a lid. I use an aquarium filter to keep the ferment at ~30°C. So the YLY must be chewing through the flour no issues, but I'm not sure how dry to expect this to ferment out to. And back to my original issue.. how can I estimate the OG of the grain bill? Most calculators don't have All-purpose baking flour for some weird reason?? Assuming regular American wheat is close, I can use the Brewer's Friend [2] calculator to get the following:
-----------------------------------------
Grain Bill:
95 L water
18 kg American - Wheat - 1.8°L
3 kg rolled oats 2.2°L
=============================
Weight:21 kgs
Estimated Pre Boil OG:1.069
Estimated Original Gravity:1.069
Estimated Final Gravity:1.016 <-- Assume I can ferment to 1.0
Estimated Alcohol By Volume:6.95% <-- Bumps this up 9%
-----------------------------------------

Assuming that's correct, I might decant some wort and stir in another 6kg of flour to get it up to an estimated 12%. Will report how I go. If this works, it will be the cheapest, easiest, fasted AG neutral I've done to date. I guess the only way to know is to compare against someone who's used enzymes to get an OG from a similar grain bill, or for me to measure the total low-wines. Again, will report back.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5dp3Xzomg
[2] https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/

[zach]

Anyone know how to estimate an OG with an all wheat flour grain bill using YLY? I'm brewing using YLY, and trying to develop the recipe into a ~12%. For what its worth, I've done the following:

: Assuming regular American wheat is close, I can use the Brewer's Friend [2] calculator to get the following:

I recently stripped a wash from 50 lbs white flour + 100 lbs white wheat that I ground to a flour in 45 gallons of boiling water. I used YLAY to convert and ferment.

I stripped each load with steam and stopped at 15 proof out of the spout. I collected 12 gallons of low wines at 38% combined.

I also did the math on Brewer's friend using white wheat and came up with an estimate of 1.100 OG and 1.008 FG (92% attenuation) and 12 % abv which agrees with amount of ethanol collected in the low wines. I did not attempt to use the hydrometer on this batch.

I have converted flour with enzymes in the past. I'm not happy with the taste of the low wines on this latest batch, so we will see after the spirit run if I will ever do this high of grist ratio again. In my previous post in this thread I had hearts that were good during the strip. There was nothing drinkable in this strip with the YLAY and the higher grist ratio.

I don't think you can add additional fermentables after the start as the enzymes might be used in the YLAY.