Heater element control
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Virginia Gentleman
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I've kept quiet on this thread for the same reasons. Guest's general modus operandi is to post half-baked, contrary information whenever possible, fail to back it up, piss off a bunch of people by trying to make them look like idiots, and then duck and cover until his next trolling opportunity. Just a warning to those who missed last week's salvo.
Lord preserve and protect us, we've been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast.
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Grayson_Stewart
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I kinda agree and yet disagree. This topic comes up quite often and we drag the dead horse back out from behind the barn and all take our whips and begin to beat it again...over and over.Brett wrote: I want to hold my vapours between the 78-82 range as this is where the ethanol dominates, by measuring the temp of the vapours and switching the heater in the wash on and of to keep the vapours in this range via a switching circuit i can achieve this in a more delicate and precise manner.
And the problem is that most everyone is correct in what they are saying, there are just so many variables involved such as coulmn vs. potstill discussion, VM vs. LM, etc.
If I read the previous posts correctly, the "GUEST" sounded correct when he stated a wash with a certain alcohol percentage will boil and produce a vapor with a specific "enriched" alcohol percentage in that vapor. At that point, you will have the most "enriched" alcohol vapor possible and the rest of the run is down hill from there. It's the nature of the beast and that physical aspect can't be changed without and additional condensing of that vapor to liquid and then re-vaporizing.
A single vaporization of a wash is ideally sought in a pot still....the additional re-vaporizations is what takes place in the fractionating column.
Now Brett, while you won't be able to change the science of nature by turning your heating element on and off, you will be able to adjust the temperature you record at the head of your column by turning the amount of heat applied on and off to your boiler. In doing this, the column is actually performing the work.
By increasing the heat input to the boiler, you are theoretically shortening the workable region of your column (creating a shorter length of Ideal plates), and increasing the recorded temperature at the top of the column because you reduced the number of ideal plates.
By decreasing the heat input to the boiler, you are pushing less vapor up the column and in effect lengthening the worakable region of the column (increasing the number of ideal plates), This generates a greater number of distillations within the column thereby reducing the temperature of the vapor you see at the top of the column. This is made more efficient with greater reflux within the column. This is achieved with a really long column and lots of packing, or using a shorter column and condensing a portion of the vapor to be returned to the column, etc.
I don't think anyone in particular is wrong, I just think everyone is not on the same page in their discussion. Given that you are using a packed column, yes you can control the vapor temp at the top by heat input to the boiler. The heat input will need to be continually decreased throughout the run to maintain the same vapor temp at the top of the column. I'm in awe of any of you guys that can build these circuits and devices to accomadate this. I cannot; I'm a civil engineer. While I am comfortable with temperatures, pressures, liquids, strength and properties of materials, etc. all I know about electricity is that this computer works when I plug it into a wall socket.
I've never tried the variable heat input because I use internal elements and find it simpler to use a single element sized for my column (yes, I made it myself and haven't been shocked yet). I control the temperature at the top of the column by increasing the amount of reflux back to the column. End result is the same effect, we just tackle the problem from different ends of the copper pipe.
As for "GUEST".........Contrary to my first impression of you back on that "plastic pipe business" you seem somewhat knowledgable, seem that you have read and know of several sources, and could contribute here. Also, you seem to have lots of free time to answer posts and help out. I'm always open for another persons ideas and opinions on most things and respect your wishes to remain anonymous and not use the registered name you say you have....I would ask that you append your messages with with some name or sign so that we may differintiate you from the other 500 "Guests" that meander through here from time to time. Of course not using your registered name does leave you open to someone wishing to "copy-cat" your posts.
Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
I'm with guest here.
In a column still with restricted head space you might not want to overdrive your boil... but your boiling temp is what it is.
you can make it boil faster or slower but you can't make it boil hotter.
for column stills I think of doing most of your adjustment at the head end, leaving a heat source within certian usable parameters as a constant.
For pot distilling I can clearly see why you'd want to be able to slow things way down for your second run but infinite adjustability seems a little overkillish.
In a column still with restricted head space you might not want to overdrive your boil... but your boiling temp is what it is.
you can make it boil faster or slower but you can't make it boil hotter.
for column stills I think of doing most of your adjustment at the head end, leaving a heat source within certian usable parameters as a constant.
For pot distilling I can clearly see why you'd want to be able to slow things way down for your second run but infinite adjustability seems a little overkillish.
"a woman who drives you to drink is hard to find, most of them will make you drive yourself."
anon--
anon--
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Guest
It's good to see the storm has settled.
I wish to make it very clear I was not trolling,nor intending to be rude or demeaning to any one. If offence was taken, I apologise.
I too have had interactions with "guests" before, under my registered name, but this is the first thread where I have appeared as "guest" and felt the wrorh.
Maybe I will re register as "Grumpy old man" so if in future you are offended by my stlye, you will understand that it is an affliction of my nature. As well, being an "Aries", I tend not to waste words (this being an exception), trying to be precise and accurate in what I say.
Hopefully we have all learnt a little bit.
Often the best answer for some one can be found by rereading the manuals, rather than perpetuating myth and miss information.
Maybe members "by lines" could include a bit of detail, eg location and type of still so we are talking apples for apples. yesterday I highlighted the differences between countries and their power supplies ,illuminating the reason why Aussies like voltage control. Just thoughts.
I bid you all a pleasant day, and undertake not to appear as guest again.
"Grumpy old man"
I wish to make it very clear I was not trolling,nor intending to be rude or demeaning to any one. If offence was taken, I apologise.
I too have had interactions with "guests" before, under my registered name, but this is the first thread where I have appeared as "guest" and felt the wrorh.
Maybe I will re register as "Grumpy old man" so if in future you are offended by my stlye, you will understand that it is an affliction of my nature. As well, being an "Aries", I tend not to waste words (this being an exception), trying to be precise and accurate in what I say.
Hopefully we have all learnt a little bit.
Often the best answer for some one can be found by rereading the manuals, rather than perpetuating myth and miss information.
Maybe members "by lines" could include a bit of detail, eg location and type of still so we are talking apples for apples. yesterday I highlighted the differences between countries and their power supplies ,illuminating the reason why Aussies like voltage control. Just thoughts.
I bid you all a pleasant day, and undertake not to appear as guest again.
"Grumpy old man"
I, too, am with Guest (and the laws of the universe!).
Brett, how are you going to control the temp of the vapour in your potstill given that the temp is tied to the composition of the wash?
You appear to have two serious misconceptions. The first is that a fast boiling vapour is hotter than a slow boiling vapour and the second is that a mixture's components will boil off differentially depending on their pure-state boiling temps.
Good explanations of the distilling process are, of course, on this very site.
Brett, how are you going to control the temp of the vapour in your potstill given that the temp is tied to the composition of the wash?
You appear to have two serious misconceptions. The first is that a fast boiling vapour is hotter than a slow boiling vapour and the second is that a mixture's components will boil off differentially depending on their pure-state boiling temps.
Good explanations of the distilling process are, of course, on this very site.
Cheers,
Lindsay.
Lindsay.
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The Chemist
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I understandthat a mixture's components will not boil off differently depending on their pure-state boiling temps and i understand that a fast boil and a slow boil are still the same temps the only difference being the speed at which we collect.
what i was thinking by doing this was that 1st of all i wont be constantly running my element wasting electricity on a heating source to heat a wash that cant be heated to any higher temp and secondly once the main body has been collected the fact that this setup wont continue above the temp i set means in theory i shouldnt have collected into the tails (to much) and i can then turn the temp setting up and collect into the tails without worrying about ruining my drinking liquor by to much tails in there.
I am new to this and im just building my first still, i thank everyone for there input and wisdoms n no offence has been caused to me or meant on my part, maybe im just thinking into the control's to much as so far iv only been able to find 2.5 and 3kw elements n didnt fancy always running these.
what i was thinking by doing this was that 1st of all i wont be constantly running my element wasting electricity on a heating source to heat a wash that cant be heated to any higher temp and secondly once the main body has been collected the fact that this setup wont continue above the temp i set means in theory i shouldnt have collected into the tails (to much) and i can then turn the temp setting up and collect into the tails without worrying about ruining my drinking liquor by to much tails in there.
I am new to this and im just building my first still, i thank everyone for there input and wisdoms n no offence has been caused to me or meant on my part, maybe im just thinking into the control's to much as so far iv only been able to find 2.5 and 3kw elements n didnt fancy always running these.
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Grayson_Stewart
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I'm kinda busy at work at the moment and will reply in depth later. If you are running internal elements this is a pretty inexpensive way to go really. I believe electricity is about 8 cents ( US) per kilowatt hour so your 2.5 Kw element on a 12 hour run would only cost $2.40 over the entire run. And there is no way you are gonna use that many watts unless you have a HUGE diameter pipe coming off your boiler and a VERY large condensor.
Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
well im in the uk and although areelectricity isnt as cheap as america 
its still not to expensive n nothing like the prices for gas.
Im building a pot still and using 8mm pipe with a 22mm jacketed condensor just shy of 1 meter long, the top end is all built and i was just trying to sort all the boiler end out, at the moment im considering just going for a single table top hob unit and a 30 ltr stockpot/mixing bowl arangement for ease of consruction and giving up on fitting internal elements.
its still not to expensive n nothing like the prices for gas.Im building a pot still and using 8mm pipe with a 22mm jacketed condensor just shy of 1 meter long, the top end is all built and i was just trying to sort all the boiler end out, at the moment im considering just going for a single table top hob unit and a 30 ltr stockpot/mixing bowl arangement for ease of consruction and giving up on fitting internal elements.
Hi, Brett. Yes, 2.5 and 3kw are pretty big. You do need to consider the "right" amount of power but you don't really need a control system with feedback.
I am surprised that you can't find smaller elements. Here in NZ our old jugs had 1600W elements and I have scrounged a couple of these. I run a reflux still but the power "problem" is the similar. My boiler has a 1600W element (from old jug) and a 1700W element (hot water heater element) in it. For initial heatup I use both in parallel (3200W - be careful you don't exceed the current capacity of your house wiring) and for the run I connect them in series for about 824W. This works fine for me but a pot still might be better with more power than 800, so a 1600W might be about right.
You could, however, use one of the high powered ones and use a burst fire controller to set the power down to a lower level for the run.
Keep it as simple as you can, especially in your learning phase!
I am surprised that you can't find smaller elements. Here in NZ our old jugs had 1600W elements and I have scrounged a couple of these. I run a reflux still but the power "problem" is the similar. My boiler has a 1600W element (from old jug) and a 1700W element (hot water heater element) in it. For initial heatup I use both in parallel (3200W - be careful you don't exceed the current capacity of your house wiring) and for the run I connect them in series for about 824W. This works fine for me but a pot still might be better with more power than 800, so a 1600W might be about right.
You could, however, use one of the high powered ones and use a burst fire controller to set the power down to a lower level for the run.
Keep it as simple as you can, especially in your learning phase!
Last edited by linw on Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,
Lindsay.
Lindsay.
Linw slight typo in your last response. You have mention connecting element in parallel twice. The second parallel should have said series.
Parallel gives bigger wattage total and series gives smaller wattage total.
Parallel gives bigger wattage total and series gives smaller wattage total.
An Ozzie Drinker. OOPs drank too much again!!! better lay down and rest for a while.
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Guest
Hope someone can "KISS" this topic for me. Because I really don't have time to go as in depth as some have with this. But I do want to have more control of the rate at which my pot still boils. Something I learned with my now defunct pressure cooker still, I'm now building a newer, larger, 7.5 gallon pot still out of a 1/4 barrel beer keg.
Honestly, I had one heck of a time controlling the temps on my stove with my first pot still. That's why I've chose to go electric with this one. But I wish to keep it simple. I don't have the expertise to build some fancy circut as mentioned here and on the home page. Nor do I really want to spend alot of money on a fan controller as others have mentioned. Could one use a simple rheostate such as a dimmer switch to control a 120v 1500-1800 watt heating element?
tia,
Jaxx
Honestly, I had one heck of a time controlling the temps on my stove with my first pot still. That's why I've chose to go electric with this one. But I wish to keep it simple. I don't have the expertise to build some fancy circut as mentioned here and on the home page. Nor do I really want to spend alot of money on a fan controller as others have mentioned. Could one use a simple rheostate such as a dimmer switch to control a 120v 1500-1800 watt heating element?
tia,
Jaxx
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Guest
Hi Brett,
The heat controller thing has now raised its ugly head again. When last we were discussing this subject Brett, I was on the point of buying a 240 volt “tea urn” off ebay UK from somewhere in Wales. But one of the moderators said that I should think about sizing the electric element to my boiler. I read and didn’t really take it in what they meant. But then the penny dropped.
Now how can I put this the way I think it could be better understood. Right, heat source let’s say gas, for the point of this posting. It doesn’t really matter. It’s how the fluid is maintained at a constant regular temperature that matters. Let’s say you have a gas hob with 4 burners on it. Say a small, medium, large and very large one.
Now place a pan with 4 litres of water in it on the very large one. It gets up to boil pretty quickly and boils very aggressively. (Loads of steam flying off it). Now move it to the large one, (still a lot of steam flying off it) it will still boil but not quite as aggressively.
Now move it to the medium one, it’ll just about keep boiling. (With just a moderate amount of steam coming off it) but it’s still just about boiling
Now move it to the small one, it’ll not boil at all just simmer, but nether will it get any colder. (There will still plenty of steam coming off the surface) and herein is the whole point of this sizing the heat source.
You want the temperature to be hot enough to get the ethanol, and still hot enough to keep the steam/alcohol mix rising up off the wash and into the column.
I have a 5 gallon boiler, with 2 x 240 volt elements, one is 2400 watts and the smaller one is an 850 watts element (240volt small caravan kettle). Plugged separately use both to get to the boil and unplug the 2400watts, and the 850 watts will keep it going. There is a way to increase the wattage by connecting in series or parallel and its in the forum somewhere do a search and you should find it
Geoff
The heat controller thing has now raised its ugly head again. When last we were discussing this subject Brett, I was on the point of buying a 240 volt “tea urn” off ebay UK from somewhere in Wales. But one of the moderators said that I should think about sizing the electric element to my boiler. I read and didn’t really take it in what they meant. But then the penny dropped.
Now how can I put this the way I think it could be better understood. Right, heat source let’s say gas, for the point of this posting. It doesn’t really matter. It’s how the fluid is maintained at a constant regular temperature that matters. Let’s say you have a gas hob with 4 burners on it. Say a small, medium, large and very large one.
Now place a pan with 4 litres of water in it on the very large one. It gets up to boil pretty quickly and boils very aggressively. (Loads of steam flying off it). Now move it to the large one, (still a lot of steam flying off it) it will still boil but not quite as aggressively.
Now move it to the medium one, it’ll just about keep boiling. (With just a moderate amount of steam coming off it) but it’s still just about boiling
Now move it to the small one, it’ll not boil at all just simmer, but nether will it get any colder. (There will still plenty of steam coming off the surface) and herein is the whole point of this sizing the heat source.
You want the temperature to be hot enough to get the ethanol, and still hot enough to keep the steam/alcohol mix rising up off the wash and into the column.
I have a 5 gallon boiler, with 2 x 240 volt elements, one is 2400 watts and the smaller one is an 850 watts element (240volt small caravan kettle). Plugged separately use both to get to the boil and unplug the 2400watts, and the 850 watts will keep it going. There is a way to increase the wattage by connecting in series or parallel and its in the forum somewhere do a search and you should find it
Geoff
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The Chemist
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Bless you, Jaxom--no need to make it more complicated than you want! Go with a rheostat, just be sure it can handle the juice. You can't really control the "boil", only the reflux rate. You don't say what you want to make, but generally lots of reflux (i.e. slow collection) makes a cleaner, vodka type; fast distillation gives more flavor/body. Just watch the cuts and don't worry about the temp so much.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
Purposeful motion, for one so insane...
I'm sorry, Chemist, I was super tired when I posted that. The smaller keg still is my pot still, mainly going to be used for rum, and other pot still goodies, who knows what the future may bring.
My local home depot just started carrying electric elements for less then the plumbing supply house has 'em for. Which size would be best for a 7.5 gallon keg? 1500w? 1800w or 2000w? (120v)? I don't wanna be mucking around with a 220 element.
To whom ever mentioned the Phason mc-4, if yer there got a few questions for ya....
Jaxx
My local home depot just started carrying electric elements for less then the plumbing supply house has 'em for. Which size would be best for a 7.5 gallon keg? 1500w? 1800w or 2000w? (120v)? I don't wanna be mucking around with a 220 element.
To whom ever mentioned the Phason mc-4, if yer there got a few questions for ya....
Jaxx
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Grayson_Stewart
- retired
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- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:56 am
I could actually go two ways with this. Since I'd only wanna buy one npt adapter from brewhaus, I either buy thier pot still rig, or make use of the one I had built for my pressure cooker. The one from brewhaus looks to be 2" stainless. Where as I would take a female 2" npt to screw on to the adapter solder in enough 2" pipe so I could solder on a 2" cap, then solder my 1" column/condensor to that.
Of course I was reminded last night the Phason unit can only handle 1500 watts anyways, so the point may be moot.
Jaxx
Of course I was reminded last night the Phason unit can only handle 1500 watts anyways, so the point may be moot.
Jaxx