I think I'm getting too much tail

[Uncle Jesse]

TN.Frank
08/24/03 12:09 AM
subject: I think I'm getting too much tail.

No, I'm not talking about my sex life. I'm talking about going to high in my temp. when I'm cooking off a batch. I picked up a bottle of store bought burbon just for grins and compared it with what I'm making. Seems like the store bought didn't have near as much flavor as my stuff and it was smoother to boot. My stuff has a smell almost like rubbing alcohol, the store bought had a "cleaner" smell to it. I know it was probably aged for 3 or 4 years and the mash was different then what I'm using but still(pun intended) I should get at least close now that I'm using chared oak to age/flavor my stuff. I used to run up to 94C but started backing down to try and get a smoother drink. I'm down to 92C but I think I should back down more. It seems like I get most of my run off at 87-88C which should be all the "good stuff" then after 88C I'll start getting into the tails where the "flavor" is. But I think I'm getting too much flavor. What has everyone elses expirence been with where they make their cut offs? Do you think that 89C might be a better place to make my cut, that's where I make it with rum. Let me know what ya'll think. Talk at ya' later. TN.Frank


Fourway
08/24/03 02:46 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TN.Frank]

Frank, have you read Making Pure Corn Whiskey by Ian Smiley? The downloadable copy is $9 US and it is a fantastic resource on how to create a proper whiskey flavor profile by manipulating your cuts.
http://www.home-distilling.com/HD_mpcw_desc.asp
I cannot recommend this book highly enough.
It explained things I had seen old timers doing that I never understood... things I think they couldn't explain to me very well because they learned them by rote themselves.

I know you've got a strong streak of wanting to do things the low tech learn as you go way, but this guy will save you literally decades of trial and error in the process of perfecting the flavor you want.


unclejesse
09/04/03 01:38 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TN.Frank]

what's your mash bill? i dont think in C, i think in F, but the lower the temperature the better, as long as you're getting your spirits running. normally off-flavors are due to either a bad mash (unlikely) or too fast/hot a run (common for beginners.) pay more attention to your cuts (if using hydrometers) than temps anyway - cuts are the real deal not an estimation.

i'd have to know which type of whiskey, the grain bill, how you're taking measurements to comment specifically. different whiskies/spirits require (tolerate, rather) different cuts.

i normally start my runs in the 175F range and sometimes i like to run in the mid-180F range. pay attention to the cuts...


It was the whiskey talkin', not me.


andrew

09/04/03 11:35 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TN.Frank]

Ditto re: the corn whiskey book -- although go to http://www.amphora-society.com/ and get it there. Last time I looked they had it discounted, some sort of symbiotic relationship between the Mikes and Ian Smiley which is always a nice thing to support.

Have you been tasting samples as you go on a spoon? Like a few drops? If it tastes foul then by all means collect a wee bit more, but you can really spoil the taste if you get too much of that shite. Oh, and how long are you aging it for? On charred oak, or just plain? Plain didn't do much for a corn/wheat batch I made, charred was much better. Try laying the chips out quite flat on tin foil, then crimping it as tightly as you can with as little air in as poss, then blasting it in your oven for a while. Quite good with rum, too.


TN.Frank
09/18/03 02:48 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

I've just about got it. I picked up a bottle of store bought called "Rebel Yell" that tastes very close to what I'm makin' except for the "off" taste I"m gettin'. I'm 99.99% sure that I'm going into the tails too far and that's where the off taste is coming from. Too many fusile oils and higher alcohols. I'm backin' down to 89C and that should do it. I'll keep ya'll posted. Talk at ya' later. TN.Frank


andrew
09/18/03 03:09 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TN.Frank]

lol! rebel yell sounds brilliant! must check it out if i ever get to them usa southern states.

i remember you saying a while back that you didn't like the taste of wet oak on your whiskey -- perhaps you could just try aging half a litre or so on some oak (toasted or not) for a few weeks, or even a month? if the off taste you're getting is like a sharp, rough feeling at the back of your throat then the oak might help things a bit. toasting the oak is real easy: wrap the chips nice and tight in tinfoil, then cook them on a high heat in your oven for 5 minutes or until you can smell they're toasted.

i made three batches of rum over three weeks, and have had them aging on home-toasted oak for about two months now. tastes really smooth. originally it had that scratchy back of the throat thing going on, but not any more.

cheers,
andrew


andrew
09/18/03 03:12 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

ok, my bad -- i've already suggested this, and you mention right at the beginning that you've been aging it. perhaps try a higher oak chip to spirit ratio, or age it for longer, or age it at a warmer temperature (e.g., hot water cupboard).


tater
09/18/03 05:50 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

what the proof that u cutting off at frank? and as for aging on this sight it tells of a guy tying a jug with charred oak chips in a tree limb with a sail on it . said it would equal 1 year of ageing for every 1 to 2 months due to the temp diff from day to night and the stirring from wind movement. am trying that with some corn i made last may. sure samples good . gonna let it go till thanksgiving temper to. 100 proof and filter. life is good later said tater


Fourway
09/18/03 06:10 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

An old guy in WV I knew as a kid had a setup like that, a small barrel, maybe 20-30 gallons on a great big sapling pole gimbal... like a pivoting seesaw or teeter totter... the barrel strapped to the short end with an old tire tied on to the bottom so that when it bumped on the ground it wouldn't bust the barrel staves and a sail and some chains for balance bound to the long thin end... the whole rig rocked up and down and rotated 360 degrees in even the slightest breeze.
His ten year took a couple of seasons according to him.


andrew
09/18/03 07:30 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

oh, and not too close to any pilot lights if your hot water cupboard is gas fired...


tater
09/18/03 09:45 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

andrew / fourway whats your thoughts temp or proof or taste is the best for tails.i was showed to cut by bead and taste. and after i started using a hydrometer it was around 80 proof at my cut off back then tails went into thumper anyhow


andrew
09/19/03 12:15 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

don't trust my thermometer as far as i can throw it, truth be told. it's digital, accurate +- .5 deg C, but even so...

i just take three to four drops on a spoon, smell it, taste it, then err on the side of caution. the thermometer i use to check when it's time to turn on the cooling water, or when the tails are just so far gone that it's time to turn off.

how do you measure by bead? soz if that's a dim question.

cheers
andrew


tater
09/19/03 05:31 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

as the proof drops the bead changes. its easyer to show then explain but some time put a small amount into a small jar at say 100 proof shake and you will see the last bubbles that are left set just under the surface then try it on 80 proof they are smaller and set differant less then 80 proof they will do what grandpa called flashing off.then its time to catch and use for backings


Anonymous
09/19/03 06:48 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

I've not been makin' my cuts by proof, I've been using temp. Even if the the temp. is not being read right I'm just using it as a guide. I have been stuffing my quart jars with chared oak strips that are 6"x1.5"x1/4". so I think I've got plenty of oak. All is ok in that dept. it was just the "off" taste. It also has a slight rubbing alcohol smell to it, that's another reason I think I'm going into the tails to much, getting to many higher alcohols in my product. I'll have a batch to run off in early Oct.(about the time Hockey season starts, yahoo!!!) so I'll know more then. I'm sure this is what's going on, I had to make the cuts in my Rum at 89C for it to taste right and I'll bet it's the same deal with the whiskey. Anyway, talk to ya'll later, TN.Frank


Fourway
09/19/03 06:50 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

I smell it, bead it, taste it and burn it.

but mostly smell and taste...

The problem with going by temp is how much temp seems to vary compared to what's actually happening... if you follow temp alone your results will be all over the place (at least if you live somewhere with weather).

My big column has a thermometer at the top of the vapor path.
my best copper pot doesn't have a thermometer at all.


andrew
09/19/03 02:39 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: Fourway]

Just remembered one other really good reason for a thermometer -- if you run a fractionating still and you want to establish an ethanol equilibrium in the column then a temp that's stable under total reflux for half an hour or so is a good indication you're there.

The only time I've found the temp to agree with taste and smell is on the third distillation of a batch with gin botanicals at the top of the column. Whether that's because the alcohol is pretty damned pure by this stage, or that the temp is reflecting more the dominance of one botanical over the others as time passes, I'm not sure. Probably the latter.

Cheers


Fourway
09/21/03 09:17 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

what gin botanicals do you use?


andrew
09/21/03 10:41 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: Fourway]

what gin botanicals do you use?



I'll post the recipe in a new thread -- this one has got kinda side tracked.


TNFrank
10/09/03 02:40 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: andrew]

Well, I ran off a batch and made my cut at 85C, that was still good for 3 qts. of 80 proof whiskey(I was getting 4) and I don't detect any "rubbing alcohol" smell or any off taste in what I've got. Now to let it age with some charred oak fingers in it for about a month and we'll see how it compares to store bought. Talk to ya'll later. TN.Frank

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


tater
10/09/03 02:59 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TNFrank]

what proof was it at the beginning and at the end of run frank if you dont mind me asking?


TNFrank
10/10/03 05:57 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

I didn't check proof until I was finished with the run, at which point it was just a tad over 160 at room temp. I cut it 50/50 with bottled water and put it in quart jars with some split charred oak to age for a spell. If I can get it close to the same as Evan Williams Green lable I'll be happier then a pig in slop. Talk to ya'll later. TN.Frank

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


tater
10/10/03 10:53 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TNFrank]

got this off flavoring sec frank it seems to be right ive tryed it both ways .Aging Spirit
To round out or smooth the flavour of your liqueur or commercially flavoured drinks, it often pays to artifically age your drinks.

This can be done using :
woods - eg natural or toasted oak, and
smoothing agents - eg glucose or glycerine syrups.
When aging your spirit, it is best done between 58-70% alcohol.


Fourway
10/10/03 01:53 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

Tater has it.
Most everything spends its time in the barrel at 115 to 150 proof.


TNFrank
10/10/03 02:03 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: Fourway]

Well, I've got it aging with charred oak right now, I wonder if some glucose(sugar) would help take the "edge" off of it a bit. It's not to far from some of the store bought stuff I've drank over the last month. I took a trip to the local liquor store(30 miles away, I'm in a dry county) and picked up several different whiskies to try. Rebel Yell was real good, Evan Williams in both 86 and 80 proof is good, Geroge Dickel was ok, not as good as I remember it when I was a youngster. The stuff I've got now will be good as store bought soon as it has the oak soak a bit to get that oak/smokey flavor into the whiskey. I do think I've finally got it, thanks to all of your help. This is one good web site. Talk to ya'll later. TN.Frank

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


TNFrank
10/20/03 12:36 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TNFrank]

After one week of soaking in oak it was ok, now I'm on a qt. that's soaked for almost two weeks and it's good. The last qt. I've got put up should soak for about 3 weeks and it should be real good. Now if I could just make enough to leave some of it soak for a year or so, I'd bet it'd be very good. It's hard to get the flavor of good aged whiskey when you only get 3 qts. a run and drink a qt. a week, LOL. Talk to ya'll later. TN.Frank

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


tater
10/22/03 06:35 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TNFrank]

lol sounds like your ready to upgrade to a 15 gallon stainless beer keg. tn frank


TNFrank
10/23/03 05:07 AM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: tater]

Only if I can drink the beer out of it first.LOL. Talk to ya' later. TN.Frank

In God we trust, all others pay cash.


pothead
03/03/04 03:43 PM
Re: I think I'm getting too much tail. [re: TNFrank]

Hey, frank....just out of curiosity...do you run a pot, reflux, refract. ? how many liters/gallons does it hold?

#1 boozehead