Re-using grains
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Re-using grains
If I have a corn/malted barley/wheat grain bill, how many times can I reuse the same grains? Should I just replace the malt? Should I re-cook the whole thing every time? I am trying to get about three gallons of drinkable stuff, so I am estimating I will need three 5-gallon mashes. I am trying to avoid using sugar.
Do not speak- unless it improves on silence.
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junkyard dawg
- Master of Distillation
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No, yer just using sugars that come from grain, not cane... You will have to replace enough grain to make up 3 gallons of ethanol... corn for the starches to convert to sugars and barley for the enzymes to do the converting... Keep Reading! 
Check out the sections of homedistiller.org for the parts about grain based mashes. You can find calculators for yields etc...
If your doing it right, you will convert the starch in the grain to sugar. (with the malt). Then the yeast will convert this sugar to alcohol and co2. Every mash has to be made with fresh grains to bring fresh sugars to the equation.
Mashing is not easy... not too hard either, but there are no shortcuts.
Check out the sections of homedistiller.org for the parts about grain based mashes. You can find calculators for yields etc...If your doing it right, you will convert the starch in the grain to sugar. (with the malt). Then the yeast will convert this sugar to alcohol and co2. Every mash has to be made with fresh grains to bring fresh sugars to the equation.
Mashing is not easy... not too hard either, but there are no shortcuts.
Once grain is malted, mashed and subsequently rinsed (brewers refer to this process as "sparging") there is less starch remaining.
The grain is at this point refered to as "spent grain".
Speaking from a strictly scientific point of view,
"grain" is 70-77% starch if you extract 2/3 of it
during mashing you are usually doing pretty well.
No "mashing" process ever manages to extract ALL of the starch.
This is partly because there are two distinctly different enzymic reactions going on which are each at their optimum under different conditions.
Another limiting factor on Mashing (allowing the malt enzymes to convert starch) is that in solution with water the enzyme reaction frequently reaches equilibrium which will essentially stop the reaction.
diluting the mash will restart it, but what many commercial distillers do
is to ferment "on the grain", because the yeast acting on sugars (and producing alcohol) reduces the sugar content and allows the malt enzymes to continue their own reaction, thus getting a far greater extraction of starch/sugar from the grain than would otherwise be practical.
"distillers dry grain" is a valuable commercial product as high protein
animal feed, because the starch has been efficiently removed
leaving protein, nutrients and fiber behind... but distillers grain is worthless for further use for alcohol production even if the grain has not been fermented on.
Even an inefficient extraction doesn't leave enough starch behind to justify the effort of further attempts at extraction/saccrification.
In other words, Chuck the grain and use fresh.
AllanD
The grain is at this point refered to as "spent grain".
Speaking from a strictly scientific point of view,
"grain" is 70-77% starch if you extract 2/3 of it
during mashing you are usually doing pretty well.
No "mashing" process ever manages to extract ALL of the starch.
This is partly because there are two distinctly different enzymic reactions going on which are each at their optimum under different conditions.
Another limiting factor on Mashing (allowing the malt enzymes to convert starch) is that in solution with water the enzyme reaction frequently reaches equilibrium which will essentially stop the reaction.
diluting the mash will restart it, but what many commercial distillers do
is to ferment "on the grain", because the yeast acting on sugars (and producing alcohol) reduces the sugar content and allows the malt enzymes to continue their own reaction, thus getting a far greater extraction of starch/sugar from the grain than would otherwise be practical.
"distillers dry grain" is a valuable commercial product as high protein
animal feed, because the starch has been efficiently removed
leaving protein, nutrients and fiber behind... but distillers grain is worthless for further use for alcohol production even if the grain has not been fermented on.
Even an inefficient extraction doesn't leave enough starch behind to justify the effort of further attempts at extraction/saccrification.
In other words, Chuck the grain and use fresh.
AllanD
That is what I was getting at. I would hate to throw away 9 pounds of grain. So, if I were to keep the grain but throw in an additional pound of malted barley for subsequent washes, would I still get good distillate from the next washes? Consider that what i am doing is mixing all the distillate together until I get 3 gallons worth so I can commence re-distilling and then ageing.stoker wrote:the grain has no starch left, but it does have taste, and that might be a reason to re-use it. not for the alcohol-matter
Maybe I ought to just get a bigger mash and a bigger boiler.
Do not speak- unless it improves on silence.
I know what you're getting at, I've been doing a "no cook" sour mash method for a while (as per Ian Smiley's book and from the info on parent site) plus trying adding more malted barley to later mashes (just cold without conversion), as well as adding some conventionally mashed & converted grains. Several things have come out of this;
As tater says, prolific reading of all info will help!
Following known recipes seems to give best results but experimenting and tweaking is also worth while.
If not replacing spent grain on a continuos basis the flavour seems to become more dominated by the small charge of sugar added to each wash after the 3rd reiteration. (Which backs up the instructions from the book).
It seems a good idea to use dextrose or invert the sugar to reduce the "winey" influence, esp after several brews. I Must try this next.
The yeast seems to live forever! But following reccommndations by others it seems best to keep the final alc % low say 5-10% to preserve flavor and the yeast robust.
Eventually you end up with so much yeast and sediment it either has to go on the compost or be used as the basis of a new mash.
Iv've been using cracked corn, alot of which is in quite big chunks, after several fermentations it was soft enough to run through a mincer (hard work though!), some of this I converted with malt, the rest I threw back into the mash and extracted yet more flavour and sugar from the grains!
I'm in the process of buying an electric mincer now to see how well this extends the use of cracked corn... I'm sure it will as it exposes more of the grain to conversion and the yeast.
Even if starting a newmash "backslopping" to a certain percentage (and there's another question!) encourages and enhance continuous flavour profile, re-uses the yeast etc, allows easy adjustment of pH. etc
I've been getting great results from this, it tastes great straight from the still, great aroma like pure corn, and gets even better when soaking in charred or toated oak for a while! I've still got a long way to go, but it's been really exciting to follow various recipes and get tasty results! Mind you, it always tastes better when homemade, even if you are you're own worst critic..
good luck!
As tater says, prolific reading of all info will help!
Following known recipes seems to give best results but experimenting and tweaking is also worth while.
If not replacing spent grain on a continuos basis the flavour seems to become more dominated by the small charge of sugar added to each wash after the 3rd reiteration. (Which backs up the instructions from the book).
It seems a good idea to use dextrose or invert the sugar to reduce the "winey" influence, esp after several brews. I Must try this next.
The yeast seems to live forever! But following reccommndations by others it seems best to keep the final alc % low say 5-10% to preserve flavor and the yeast robust.
Eventually you end up with so much yeast and sediment it either has to go on the compost or be used as the basis of a new mash.
Iv've been using cracked corn, alot of which is in quite big chunks, after several fermentations it was soft enough to run through a mincer (hard work though!), some of this I converted with malt, the rest I threw back into the mash and extracted yet more flavour and sugar from the grains!
I'm in the process of buying an electric mincer now to see how well this extends the use of cracked corn... I'm sure it will as it exposes more of the grain to conversion and the yeast.
Even if starting a newmash "backslopping" to a certain percentage (and there's another question!) encourages and enhance continuous flavour profile, re-uses the yeast etc, allows easy adjustment of pH. etc
I've been getting great results from this, it tastes great straight from the still, great aroma like pure corn, and gets even better when soaking in charred or toated oak for a while! I've still got a long way to go, but it's been really exciting to follow various recipes and get tasty results! Mind you, it always tastes better when homemade, even if you are you're own worst critic..
good luck!-
Uncle Remus
- Trainee
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9 pounds of grain is worth like about $1.00. Why are you worried about re-using it? And why would you waste a pound of malt on spent grain with no starches left in it? Maybe I'm missing something here but it just don't make a whole lota sense to me.That is what I was getting at. I would hate to throw away 9 pounds of grain. So, if I were to keep the grain but throw in an additional pound of malted barley for subsequent washes, would I still get good distillate from the next washes? Consider that what i am doing is mixing all the distillate together until I get 3 gallons worth so I can commence re-distilling and then ageing.
Maybe I ought to just get a bigger mash and a bigger boiler
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day and drink beer.
aha so fructose is the culprit, thanks for that!
hmm I'm still looking for a cheap source of grain, not that I've searched too hard so far, even with the price I'm paying which may not be particularly cheap around NZ$15-$17 per 25kg, it makes sense though that it's not worth re-using mashed spent grain....or adding malt to it either.
Have tried adding malt (shop bought kilned and home sprouted) to the raw corn fermentations, hard to tell whether some conversion was taking place, but did seem to get a reasonably generous output for the ingredients
hmm I'm still looking for a cheap source of grain, not that I've searched too hard so far, even with the price I'm paying which may not be particularly cheap around NZ$15-$17 per 25kg, it makes sense though that it's not worth re-using mashed spent grain....or adding malt to it either.
Have tried adding malt (shop bought kilned and home sprouted) to the raw corn fermentations, hard to tell whether some conversion was taking place, but did seem to get a reasonably generous output for the ingredients
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Harry
- Swill Maker
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- Location: Paradise (aka Cairns Qld Australia)
[quote=]9 pounds of grain is worth like about $1.00. Why are you worried about re-using it? And why would you waste a pound of malt on spent grain with no starches left in it? Maybe I'm missing something here but it just don't make a whole lota sense to me. [/quote]
I'm with you, UR. Let's try this for a radical thought. Feed the 9 lbs grain to yer chooks. What's fer Sunday lunch? Southern fried chicken & homemade Bourbon. It don't get better'n that!
[/quote]I'm with you, UR. Let's try this for a radical thought. Feed the 9 lbs grain to yer chooks. What's fer Sunday lunch? Southern fried chicken & homemade Bourbon. It don't get better'n that!
Slainte!
regards Harry
regards Harry
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hornedrhodent
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