My plastic still

[LuNaTiX]

I just ordered this still design, I don't think its going to be the exact same but its close enough. Cost me about 125$ CND but I think it will pay off. Apparently part of the heater rusts so im going to have to keep an eye open for that and try to prevent it from rusting or do something about it.

It's not like a high end copper still or anything, but it is able to make 40% alcohol and to me thats plenty, I try to stay away from anything stronger then 40% or 50% alcohol. It's slow too, makes about 500-750 ml of 40% alcohol per day and can be re-distilled to make 50-55% alcohol. It seems to be a neat little device to have, I'll be sure to post pictures of it when I get it and tell you how it works.

[Uncle Remus]

Hope ya don't poison yourself.

[LuNaTiX]

You mean how the alcohol might absorb the plastic? I didn't think 40% alcohol would be enough to do that. I'm going to e-mail the company and ask about that, just to see what they say.

Update:

I just got an e-mail from the company assuring me that the plastic still is safe


From : Brewhaus (Canada) <mail>
Sent : December 4, 2006 1:37:32 AM
To : My Name <myemail>
Subject : RE: Order check


"<myname>

The plastic stil is 100% safe."

[jmc91199]

I just got an e-mail from the company assuring me that the plastic still is safe

You didn't actually expect them to tell you that the product they sell is unsafe did you?

A side from the fact that hot alcohol vapor will probably dissolve that bucket to some degree. That contraption will not allow for cuts. So that 40% abv will probably taste decidedly like shit. So the question becomes what was the point?

If your goal is to make a pint of liquid hell that will get you messed up, then this is one option. If, however, you want to make a real high quality beverage that you can enjoy, you need to reconsider how you are spending your money.

[LuNaTiX]

well, maybe they were lying, but I doubt the plastic will have much of an effect on the distilled alcohol taste. Right now I have a wine kit that uses the same kind of plastic and there are always alcohol vapors below the lid, and it does not desolve away the plastic or make the wine or alcohol made in it taste bad; I also doubt its toxic.With that in mind, I think you're wrong. But I'll find out soon enough. As for my spending, well, I got plenty of money im not worried right now about where I spend it, I'll learn the hard way I guess.

So the point of buying this, to try it out and see if it works well. No harm in doing that.

But if you really think you're right, find me some proof on the internet, I know I looked for awhile and can't find any so im assuming what you are saying is just an opinion and not actual fact.

[Arnie_sla]

How do you get rid of any Methanol before you start collecting the Ethanol. ??? How do you seperate the heads from the middle run and the tails ????

[rangaz]

with great effort I'd say. I've tried with a wok still before which is similar prinicple. I had to wait a while and take a guess when I thought enough vapor had condensed as heads, take off heat, wait a while then remove lid carefully and discard contents, then put it all togeather again only to do it all again every now and then to avoid running into tails. It was annoying, slow and I lost a lot of alcohol because I took deep cuts. It also took 3 distills to get a decent tasting product at 45%...
try searching for the spiral still on this website, it will take a long time to distill but it can obtain up to 95% and doesnt need to be tended constantly. You could use most of that equipment and would only need to buy about 5m of copper

[LuNaTiX]

Little bit off topic

don't you just throw away the first 50-100 ml that get distilled because methanol evaporates before the ethanol?

[LuNaTiX]

The product tasted bad? what did it taste like and are you talking about (brewhaus.ca) being the site? I may just upgrade to something better later on when I get a chance. I wanna experiment a bit with this one thought.

So what was the taste like?

[speedfreaksteve]

For the same money you can surely do alot better. For my last still I made, a 22L pot and lid were $13, the 2" copper and fittings were about $130, but I still have enough copper left over to make another still minus a few fittings. Not to mention for that I made a still that can be run as a pot still or reflux still just based on which way I hookup my hoses to it.

You can get a single 1000w burner for $20.

With a pot like I have and 1" piping you could easily build that for under $100, and it would beat the hell out of that thing.

Look at it this way, if that thing was a good, we'd all be using it.

[copperhead]

lunatix you mite want to do a bit of reading up on what your are experimenting with. these guys are only trying to get you off to a good start this is a really enjoyable hobby but plastic dont belong in it.read the parent site http://homedistiller.org onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow lots of good info there. mite keep you from hurting yourself or your friends.

[rangaz]

"what did it taste like"
like awfull cheap vodka and needed a lot of filtering and redistilling to get it drinkable, you also dont get good separation of the alcohol so much of the ethanol is lost in tails and heads.

"are you talking about (brewhaus.ca) being the site"
no I meant this forum

[rkr]

You didn't actually expect them to tell you that the product they sell is unsafe did you?

A side from the fact that hot alcohol vapor will probably dissolve that bucket to some degree. That contraption will not allow for cuts. So that 40% abv will probably taste decidedly like shit. So the question becomes what was the point?

If your goal is to make a pint of liquid hell that will get you messed up, then this is one option. If, however, you want to make a real high quality beverage that you can enjoy, you need to reconsider how you are spending your money.

Comments like this based on factual knowledge and empirical research really make this a high class discussion forum.

I suggest you lunatix do a search in this forum using word plastic. Facts have been presented earlier and old-wives tales sorted out in some of those threads. The suggestion for spiral still is also a good one. The document can be found at http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... 20Listings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers, Riku

[Aidas]

LuNaTix

As for my spending, well, I got plenty of money im not worried right now about where I spend it, I'll learn the hard way I guess.

Wasting money is not a virtue. If you want to experiment before springing for a real still, or putting out the effort to build one, that's great -- but the way you're going about it is a dead end. You'll end getting crap out of it, and then believe that home-distilling is a crock. And you'll be wrong.

For that kind of money you can pretty much buy an EasyStill, which is easier to work with, works better and allows you to discard the foreshots, and do head and tail cuts. That's what I started with before going bigger and better (I use a copper alembic now). I still use it to experiment with new mashes, and I'm not ashamed of it, even though it takes no brains to operate it.

Right now I have a wine kit that uses the same kind of plastic and there are always alcohol vapors below the lid, and it does not desolve away the plastic or make the wine or alcohol made in it taste bad; I also doubt its toxic.With that in mind, I think you're wrong. But I'll find out soon enough.

Whatever vapor is coming off of your wine is a: cool, b: less concentrated and c: even in winemaking, you shouldn't be using plastic except for your primary fermenter. Secondary should be in glass (this is homewinemaking, not grand scale, where I'd say ss or oak is the way to go). Plastic is not something that you should use in any part of home-distilling, except for primary fermentation.

Welcome to the hobby, but I hope your next step will be a correct one, rather than your first, which I would write off as a mistep.

Aidas

[Uncle Remus]

well, maybe they were lying, but I doubt the plastic will have much of an effect on the distilled alcohol taste. Right now I have a wine kit that uses the same kind of plastic and there are always alcohol vapors below the lid, and it does not desolve away the plastic or make the wine or alcohol made in it taste bad; I also doubt its toxic.With that in mind, I think you're wrong. But I'll find out soon enough. As for my spending, well, I got plenty of money im not worried right now about where I spend it, I'll learn the hard way I guess.

I've made wine for years. No problem making wine in plastic. But distilling and fermenting are 2 different cups of meat. Anyone out there who sells a still is going to tell you it's 100% safe. What are you going to do about it if it's not? Sue them? Don't forget this hobby is illegal in most countries. If a company like Brewhaus ever got drug out on the rug about it, they'd probably say it was meant to distill water and not alcohol.
When I first started distilling I had one small piece of 3/8 lab grade plastic hose on my still. It turned milky white and lost much of it's flexability after only one use. Plastics have no place on a still.

[junkyard dawg]

well said Aidas... and remus and everyone else too.

So, lunatix, you getting the idea? There are much better and safer and cheaper ways to get into this hobby. If I were you, I'd cancel that order and start reading this forum and the parent site. You're young, probably don't really know what you like to drink yet... but thats the first question. Then you can start thinking about how to make that. whiskey and vodka are very different. Like everyone has said, that still is going to disappoint you, slowly poison you, and give you some screeching nightmarish hangovers. On the positive side, you can get plenty of help here to do it right.

[Stillhead]

We are not trying to fight with you. We just want everyone in this hobby to be safe and responsible. Home distillation requires dedication and research. We as distillers don't need any more bad press. As far as using plastic. That thing is most certainly made out of high density polyethylene. It is not bad for storing some chemicals (such as ketchup). I use them as solvent washbottles in the lab. I don't drink from them. Here is an exerpt from Hazardous Waste News speaking about chemical incompatability of HDPE:

The Phillips booklet lists many individual household chemicals as incompatible with HDPE.

Appendix I of the Phillips booklet lists the following chemicals under the heading "can cause stress cracks" in HDPE:

Acids: acetic acid (1% to 10% solution); aqua regia.

Foods & food products: cider, lard, margarine, vinegar, vanilla extract.

Household toiletries and pharmaceutical products: detergents (standard); detergents (heavy duty); dry cleaners; hair oil; hair shampoo; hair wave lotions; hand creams; iodine (tincture) ("embrittlement may occur after prolonged exposure"); lighter fluid; nail polish; shaving lotion; shoe polish (liquid); shoe polish (paste); soap; wax (liquid and paste); amyl alcohol 100%; carbon tetrachloride; chlorobenzene ("softening and part deformation will occur"); chloroform ("softening and part deformation will occur"); cyclohexanol; ethyl alcohol (also known as booze); methyl alcohol (a component of shellac); propyl alcohol.

Here is the ref:
"The Best Landfill Liner: HDPE." RACHEL'S HAZARDOUS WASTE NEWS #117 (February 21, 1989), pg. 1

[LuNaTiX]

Well I'll do some more research, especially about plastic. I live in an apartment so a real full copper still is kind of out of the question for now, because even in my kitchen on the stove theres no ventalation; so this plastic still seemed to be a good option at the time. and also I know most of you arn't trying to fight with me, and I respect what each of you have to say. So that list of chemicals and products, what do they mean? does it mean it can tolorate ethyl alcohol? or by stress cracks do they mean alcohol will disolve it away?

[LuNaTiX]

I came across this thread:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... ht=plastic

Unfortunetly the thread was locked and not allowed to continue, but it seems to be one person's belief that plastic is not as bad as many distillers believe. I understand that there are dangers of using plastic in stills especially if the whole thing is made of plastic, but apparently there is no evidence that says certain plastics will desolve away when mixed with 80 proof alcohol or come in contact with it, but there is also no evidence that proves that the alcohol won't desolve certain plastics. So it's a controversial subject, especially for those who like to stick to what works best and is safe, which is copper.


I'm also looking at this EasyStill at http://www.easystill.com and perhaps that might be my next still that I buy. Later on in life I intend to build my own, I'll know alot more, and I have my own house in the woods and the privacy to do some real distilling.

[Stillhead]

The cracks that would form are an indication that ethyl alcohol dissolves out the plasticizers from the plastic. The same thing happens to the dash and steering wheel in your car. The heat and UV light slowly cuase the plasticizer in the vinyl to leach out. Therefore the dash will crack and become stiff and brittle. You may notice in old cars, the steering wheel feels sticky and you can never wash it away. That is the plasticizer seperating out.

And for those that like the new car smell. Plasticizer is also what you are enjoying so much. The MSDS would advise you to wear a respirator in that closed environment!

I am jealous cause I cannot afford a new car, so I guess I am a little biassed.

But seriously, the plastic is probably not the real concern here, because it is diluted ethyl alcohol, and you are not storing the booze in there.

The real problem, as others have said, is that you cant take cuts to seperate the nasties out easily. If you smelled heads or tails out of a fractionating still, you would understand. You also certainly would not drink them.

[speedfreaksteve]

I'm not bashing it at all because its plastic. I don't really care that it's plastic. It's the actual design itself.

You'll never likely be able to produce a quality product with that still.. that's the bottom line.

[possum]

That spiral still made from HDPE might be ok for the first distillation, to reduce the volume, but trouble will DEFINATELY arise when or if you do a second distliiation in the still. At higher proofs, the plastics often weaken, and disolve some of those plasticisers into the drink.

By the way, a 1x distilled sugar wash with no cuts (foreshots,heads,body, tails) tastes pretty yucky.

I built my copper 5 gallon rig to sit on the stovetop, and many others have done the same with SS stock pots with adapters to catch the vapor.
Good luck.

[jmc91199]

Since space and tools are probably in short supply you may consider a pressure cooker as your boiler and some copper line strung into a bucket of water. It requires almost no tools and can be broken down and stuffed in a closet when the neighbors come by. Also ventilation is not needed as long as the heat is kept down so as not to let vapor escape.

[xylic75]

From personal experience with that type of still type I can say this.

The alcohol you will get out of it is going to be of pretty poor quality. I have never noted any off tastes from the plastic and after many uses the still hasn't changed in clarity or appearance so I don't think the alcohol is getting to a high enough percentage to actually do anything to the plastic, and the alcohol also isn't really hot enough. These things work more off of evaporation that anything, that's why the output and quality is so low.

Personally I wouldn't drink the product that comes out of it without doing something to it first, it is far too sweet for me, roomie likes it though. Running it 3 or 4 times through carbon will give you a decent vodka quality mixer.

I now use it to fortify wines. We run off the second run of the must in it and then add what comes out back to the wine we want to fortify. Works very good for that and the product isn't giving us the hangovers we had when we did similiar cuts with Corn Syrup and PGA.

Also, be careful when you siphon off your mash, if you get any yeast in there it will give it a funky taste.

The same setup can be had by going to your local brew shop and getting a wine fermenter, then picking up the rest of the items at Wal-Mart. Costs 60 bucks if you get fancy.

One other note, you will also be able to actually see the fusel oils on top of the alcohol, and that's not a good thing.

[rkr]

That spiral still made from HDPE might be ok for the first distillation, to reduce the volume, but trouble will DEFINATELY arise when or if you do a second distliiation in the still. At higher proofs, the plastics often weaken, and disolve some of those plasticisers into the drink.

By the way, a 1x distilled sugar wash with no cuts (foreshots,heads,body, tails) tastes pretty yucky.

I built my copper 5 gallon rig to sit on the stovetop, and many others have done the same with SS stock pots with adapters to catch the vapor.
Good luck.

Argh, you can not use HDPE for a boiler as it will get too soft to seal the lid properly. Those fermentation buckets used for "amazing stills" and spiral stills are made of polypropylene, an arrow tirangel with PP or number 5 in it is the mark as stated in all documentation. That's the only commonly available plastic material I would recommend for a boiler. Even some brands of PP will leach softeners when continuously exposed to hot propyl / ethanol vapors, but those conditions only exist inside the column normally, not in the boiler. Inside the boiler max. vapor ABV is determined by the mash ABV.

Two other plastic that can be used and are commonly available are PTFE and aquarium grade RTV silicone. Other types of silicones have also been tested succesfully.

Cheers, Riku

[possum]

Thanks rkr..I'm definately not an organic chemist, or a persoon in the plastics or polymer trade.
Poly propeline is the stuff you say ?
How does it hold up with higher proof stuff in it at temp? Or is it only good for a stripping run?
Thanks.

[speedfreaksteve]

That spiral still made from HDPE might be ok for the first distillation, to reduce the volume, but trouble will DEFINATELY arise when or if you do a second distliiation in the still. At higher proofs, the plastics often weaken, and disolve some of those plasticisers into the drink.

Yes I've seen that first hand. I knew someone that tried smuggling vodka that was transferred into plastic containers.

They figured it was less conspicuous than having it in vodka bottles. Well to make a long story short, they got the vodka across the border, but by then the plastic was all ruptured from the alcohol leeching into it. About 20 litres of vodka literally down the drain.

[Stillhead]

what is the plastic that booze comes in when you buy a plastic 60 ouncer?

[AfricaUnite]

PET in Ontario I was told. I assume its the same elsewhere, I still dont trust it. I like glass for my containers. Ive phased out using my amazing still. It was nice to strip mashes but I dont want to deal with plastics anymore. Just a personal choice.

[Tater]

[
Two other plastic that can be used and are commonly available are PTFE and aquarium grade RTV silicone. Other types of silicones have also been tested succesfully.

Cheers, Riku[/quote] tested by who?Please show info where they are ok to use in a still.