My plastic still

[Miraculix]

Tested how? what methodology? was a GCMS involved or did it just look ok?

Riku, I respect your knowledge of stills and appurtances, but I respectfully disagree. I had a few years of working in a plastic testing lab to determine my stance. Even tho the risk from some of the things talked about in this post may be small, I believe in the interest of general safety that only the best practices should be advocated on this forum. or any other distilling forum. When I see the best distillers in the world using a plastic boiler I might think twice, but until then....

There are proven safe materials to use in a still... This eliminates only one of the many dangers involved in this hobby, but its a start. We're not talking about ways to cobble together some prison toilet hootch, we want to make a good, (relatively) safe product. The best you can say about this plastic bucket and aquarium heater still is that it will generally perform the function of an ethanol seperator. Maybe we can start a new forum or section here to discuss these types of still. maybe jailhousetoiletbooze.com???

Riku, I took out the rubber orings in my cheap brass needle valves and replaced it with ptfe tape. took a few tries to get it right, but works fine. hasn't leaked yet. I had done a few runs with the rubber and it crumbled with it came off.

------------------------------------

jd, being so against PP plastic, what about that cheap needle valve of yours...

- Are you sure that no led is leeched out of the brass and gets into your
spirits?
- Do you know if the valves are tested?
- Is it a proven safe material to use?
- Or does it just look OK to use it?
- Are you sure it's safe to drink your hooch (or is it jailhousetoiletbooze
you're making)?

/Miraculix

[Tater]

Harry sorry to hear your problems as well. Long as drinking been around and it only being governed last 50 60 years on who can drink and at what age.looks like we would have a world full of off spring with those problems.Doesnt help you any though and i am truly sorry for you and your family.

[junkyard dawg]

miraculix, is that the best you can think of to add to this conversation?


1. I'm not against pp. I'm against people doing dumb things to make a still.

2. Brass is copper and zinc.

3. I tested them with a cheap test strip. like ph paper. oh, and its lead...

4. Brass is generally accepted to be safe.

5. looks ok to me...

6. I'm sure that ethanol and home distilling in particular carry inherent risks. I've done my best to reduce those risks where I can.

before you criticize what I put in my body, I have one word for you: lutefisk.

[xylic75]

every company out there is careless with the truth on ocasions
ask for one of them metrial safety data sheets on whatever you gonna use an read carefuly

Got those at work, but they aren't always as informative as they're supposed to be unless you're a chemist.

The DAP I am using can essentially be eaten by accident and not kill you though, or so the company provided information reads and the FDA believes.

However as my final post on the subject.

The still in question makes crap alcohol for consumption without heavy doctoring or using the extacted alcohol for other purposes. I wouldn't drink it straight. My roomie will, but sometimes I question his tastes.

The stuff you'll get out of this is better than Barton's Vodka or an MD 20/20, but well, it isn't really worth the effort to me to drink what I get out of it.

Perfect for stripping and putting it back in for other things for a real distillation or fortifying a wine though. In my personal experience, YMMV.

I'm not a chemist and likely to keel over by the time I'm 60 by the amount of commercial alcohol I consumed in my mispent youth though, carry on.

Xyl

[rkr]

In practice those basic amazing stills give quite similar quality as regular pot stills. I don't think any of us would drink single distilled stuff without cuts from pot still either. The amazing still has an advantage of having less high boiling point alcohols due to low temperature evaporation principle, but at the same time it gives lower ABV. The low temperature evaporation principle is interesting though and some guys have even double distilled acceptable rum and brandy with those things. It is also possible to modify them to give 75% stuff and allow cuts, although I'm not comfortable with that high ABV and polypropylene. I've used them as strippers for malt and sugar mashes and for that they work quite well.

I must say the price for those things is ridiculous, you can put one together for 30-40$ depending on the aquarium heater you use.

Cheers, Riku

[Miraculix]

JD wrote:

miraculix, is that the best you can think of to add to this conversation?

1. I'm not against pp. I'm against people doing dumb things to make a still.

2. Brass is copper and zinc.

3. I tested them with a cheap test strip. like ph paper. oh, and its lead...

4. Brass is generally accepted to be safe.

5. looks ok to me...

6. I'm sure that ethanol and home distilling in particular carry inherent risks. I've done my best to reduce those risks where I can.

before you criticize what I put in my body, I have one word for you: lutefisk.

Best? Probably not, but in the heat of the race...

1. Good to hear your not against PP as a boiler
2. Brass is copper, zink and lead. The lead is put there for the machining part.
Without lead brass is very brittle. I will provide some links for you to read.
What generally known as "lead free brass" isn't necessary lead free.
Actually brass can typically contain up to 8% lead... that's a lot... The
limit in the US is that water may contain max. 15 ppb/liter according to SDWA.
Many of the brass fittings and other stuff will give much more than that.
Especially stuff not intended for use in water supplies.
Your needle valves are (probably) not built for using in water supplies for consumption.
I do think your needlevalves contaminate your product with quite a lot
of unwanted lead. And, I guess, you don't have brass cooking pots in the
US... there is a reason for this...

Some interesting pages to read on the subject:

http://waternet.com/article.asp?IndexID=5220105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.copper.org/environment/sdwa_intro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.copper.org/environment/sdwa_faq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/schools/re ... s.html#six" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Make also a search on Google to read more...

3. Is that cheap test strip especially for testing of lead?
4. Generally accepted within certain conditions (read above articles). Probably not for warm/hot ethanol vapor.
5. Looks can decieve you...
6. Look again to your brass fittigs/needle valves...
7. Lutefisk has almost no nutrition value. No fat, no carb's, no protein. It
just tastes good It's not unhealty... which was the "red string" in these
postings...

My point with the original post, was to get people to look to their own stills,
before "jumping" on others...

PP plastic as a boiler is maybe a bad idea, using brass is definitely a bad idea...

JD, go to the doctor and check your blood levels for lead contamination...

/Miraculix

PS! Sorry for any bad english, it's not my main language.

[Rocky_Creek]

Stick with the wine, you don't know what you are doing and just wasted a lot of money.

[Miraculix]

Rocky_Creek wrote:

Stick with the wine, you don't know what you are doing and just wasted a lot of money.

Lunatix, don't mind him. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

/Miraculix

[Mtn-Hi]

Hey, not to get everyone wound up again but I have a simple question. I've been running an unpacked reflux as a potstill and at the end of my condenser I have attached a section of 9/16 vinyl tubing. It has cold distallate coming down it. It is convenient to move around from jar to jar. I've had this same tubing on for several years and have run 80% through it on a regular basis. It hasn't changed charicteristics in the least over those years, meaning no color change, no density change ect. So the question is.........are your concerns with "hot ethenol" or are you against the alchol touching tubing at any stage of the process. BTW the "Bourbons" and " Sourmashs" that I produce are unquestionably some of the finest around. I'm just saying that so you know I'm not just running common swill, and I do have many references!

[Tater]

To each there own. I wouldnt drink it.

[Uncle Jesse]

Do I say nothing? Can't do that. These forums are about educating people on alcohol, the good AND the bad.

I couldn't have said it any better. I am sure I'm not the only one who has had friends and family ripped apart by alcoholism and all the negatives which come along with it. Premature deaths thanks to stomach and liver damage, drunk driving, domestic abuse, abused and neglected children, you name it.

As I stated in the WIKI:

Distillation is an adult hobby for responsible individuals. Most hobbies are much more forgiving than distillation. If you are not careful with distillation, you can ruin your floors and carpets, asphyxiate yourself, start a serious uncontrollable fire or poison yourself and your friends just to name a few consequences of irresponsible action.

best wishes for your family. It's tough enough when my one child acts up!

[Mtn-Hi]

Tater wrote:

To each there own. I wouldnt drink it

Is that your answer to my question or of some other previous statement?

[Tater]

yours

[Mtn-Hi]

Well thanks for the blunt, rude answer. I reckon I'll go discuss my hobby somewhere else. I thought I asked a civil question and I certainly didn't expect such a blunt response.
BTW you'd be passing up some pretty good stuff if you wouldn't try mine. And also, out of all the shiners I've known over the years I've not had to inspect one of thier stills to have a drink of thier shine.
Have a nice life.
Mike

[Tater]

Ok bye

[goose eye]

mtn-hi is it food grade an rated for likker. is that all you got an cant find no copper tomake it with. round here you dont drink it unless you no the seller. they aint got to be the maker but you no there repertation.
if they in it only for the money you shy away cause that likker that mite burn red is cheeper to make.
why you gonna chance it

[level Joe]

goose eye
cant find no copper tomake it with.

Please show info where copper is ok to use in a still.
Anyone?



http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Chronically elevated copper levels in most patients may result from one-sided diets that lack co-factors

or copper antagonists, or from the fact that many copper-rich foods are somewhat addictive, such as

cocoa / chocolate products, colas, coffee, or tea (copper levels are even higher in tea than in coffee).

Other sources include seafood / shellfish, seeds and nuts, liver, soy products, foods or beverages that

are cooked or stored in copper containers (beer), tap water (copper plumbing), and copper IUDs.



Due to the synergism of copper and aluminum (aluminium), a higher intake or absorption of aluminum -

ranging from anti-perspirants, tetra packs, all the way to municipal drinking water treated with aluminum

sulphate and polyaluminum chloride (used as coagulants) - will result in greater copper retention and

lowered sulfur levels since both, aluminum and copper are sulfur antagonists. High copper levels, along

with related sulfur deficiencies, can be considered to be one of the most prominent causes of many

modern physical and mental health problems.



Higher estrogen hormone levels from Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), taking birth control pills

and pregnancy increase intracellular copper and manganese levels, and they sometimes raise serum

copper as well, which can contribute to changes in sugar metabolism, oxygen metabolism (asthma),

and a female's mental and emotional well-being. Serum copper levels also generally increase during

acute infections, where at the same time serum iron levels decline. The only genetic association to

toxic copper overload is found in Wilson's disease, which however is relatively rare.



Copper Toxicity or excessive copper levels have been associated with physical and mental fatigue,

depression and other mental problems, schizophrenia, learning disabilities, hyperactivity / ADD, mood

swings (sometimes violent, criminal or psychotic behavior) and general behavioral problems, memory

and concentration problems, postpartum depression, vascular degeneration, headaches, increased
risk of infections, sleep disorders, arthritis, spinal / muscle / joint aches and pains, hemangiomas and

several cancers.

Copper is a necessary component to support angiogenesis (formation of new blood vessels in tumors),

so to a certain extent, lowering copper reduces the risk to develop benign and malignant (cancerous)

tumors. Nausea and vomiting are not only common effects from copper toxicity, but they can also be
experienced when copper is supplemented on an empty stomach, with acidic foods or beverages, or

with taking higher amounts of Vitamin C

[Husker]

level Joe
Please show info where copper is ok to use in a still.
Anyone?

Hundreds, if not thousands of years of imperical evidence (i.e. usage).

H.

[Tater]

level joe aint like you to troll.

[goose eye]

level joe im sorry i cant nor prove the wind neither without seein the efects.

[level Joe]

tater
level joe aint like you to troll.

Sorry...
To troll is not my intent but to an extent, yes, I can see how you could take it that way. I did do a lot of searching (I did want to find something that said it was safe in the flow of hot etho) but couldn’t find it, so, I asked. I mostly wanted to make a point Ill get to later.

Husker
Hundreds, if not thousands of years of imperical evidence (i.e. usage).

How long was lead thought to be safe by " Hundreds, if not thousands of years of imperical evidence (i.e. usage). "?

The Romans prized lead and even seasoned food with it. Yes copper is quite different than lead because our bodies actually need copper for many reasons.
"Copper became a popular choice for water distribution plumbing in the U.S. following World War II, but had been available since the 1920's." It also has an expected life of 20 years life (you may get 25-30 years or more in some areas). Why? It corrodes. Some distilleries put chunks of copper pipe in stainless columns and leave them there till they completely dissolve.
Can anybody tell me the parts per million (ppm) of copper that their stills product has? The EPA regulates(standard 61 lead and copper rule) the safe level in drinking water at 1.3 ppm and the pH of the water is to be set at 6.5 to 8.5 ("The pH of the brew should be adjusted to between 4.0 and 4.5 prior to fermentation")to slow corrosion and keep tha copper ppm low. If the pH is too low the pipes corrode and the ppm can go over the safe limit. Again I couldn’t find safe levels of copper in distilled products. The spent mash on the other hand does as it applies to cattle feed.

I could give links to all kinds of sites that give facts/opinions saying copper is safe. I can give links to sites where studies show its not (some have facts/opinions/side effects in humans, fish and lab rats that its not). Are the finding biased, do they have a financial interest in it being safe or unsafe? Grouping all plastics together in levels of there risk is like grouping all metals.

Copper (I wont even get into stainless steel) having a boat load of great properties for distilling does not mean its 100% risk free. I’m not saying not to use it (personally I will continue to use it as it’s a risk I’m willing to take). I am saying there are unknown/unproven effects to its use. What are all of them? Hell I don’t know. Wait another ten - hundred - thousand years? Find and read all you can on every material.

My point;

We aren’t going to be 100% safe in anything. Assuming things are safe because they have been used a long time or not or stating them as such, is foolish, be it copper, plastics or whatever. It all comes down to levels of risk, my level is not yours, his is not mine and yours is not his.

You’ve all made your points, let it go.



P.S. Husker & tater, that was not all directed at the two of you. I tried not to offend anyone, sorry if I did not succeed.

[Tater]

[Harry]

Level Joe,

You make some good points in your post about copper. It's true that with our present level of knowledge, nobody can say 100% that it or any other substance (including plastics) are good, bad, or indifferent.

However I'd rather follow the guidelines of those with unlimited Research & Development funds AND those like the World Health Organization who are charged with (and accountable for) guarding the wellbeing of humans, rather than some anecdotal hearsay.

I assume you have seen my dissertation on Metals used in Distilling.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/35812

There was a lot of research in there you might like to follow up. Some of the references on Copper were...

References

1. Aaseth, J., Norseth, T. (1986). Copper. In: Friberg, L., Nordberg, G.F., Vouk, V.B. Handbook on the toxicology of metals. Second edition. Elsevier, Amsterdam, New York, Oxford.

2. Beliles, R.P. (1994). The metals. In: Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, Fourth

edition, Volume 2, Part C. Edited by Clayton, G.D., and Clayton, F.E. John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

3. British Non-Ferrous Metals Federation (1997). Written comments on the draft guideline.

4. Codex Alimentarius Commission (1995). Doc. no. CX/FAC 96/17. Joint FAO/WHO food standards programme. Codex general standard for contaminants and toxins in foods.

5. Environmental Health Criteria for Copper (1996). PCS/EHC 96.28 unedited, page 9.

6. IPCS EHC 200 Copper (1998). Environmental Health Criteria 200. World Health

Organization, Geneva.

7. JECFA (1982). Evaluation of certain food additives and contaminants. Twenty-sixth report of the Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives. World Health Organization,

Technical Report Series 683.

8. Rogers, J., Dowsett, A.B., Dennis, P.J., Lee, J.V., Keevil, C.W. (1994). Influence of plumbing materials on bio film formation and growth of Lagionella pneumophila in notable water systems. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. p. 1842-1851.

9. SCF (1993). Reports of the Scientific Committee for Food. Thirty-first series. Nutrient and energy intakes for the European Community.

10. WHO (1998). Guidelines for drinking-water quality. Addendum to Volume 1,

Can anybody tell me the parts per million (ppm) of copper that their stills product has? The EPA regulates(standard 61 lead and copper rule) the safe level in drinking water at 1.3 ppm

I can't tell you mine (no GC machine ) but here's a bit of info from the Master Brewer's Association of America you may find fascinating...

<ext>
In breweries, the preferred use of stainless steel rather than copper has occasionally led to increases in hydrogen sulfide (H[2]S) concentrations in beer since its elimination as copper sulfide (CuS) did not take place. Depending on the character of the underlying beer, this off-flavor can become quite noticeable.

TABLE 1. Copper concentration in beer.
Year.....................Copper (ug/L)....................Reference
1958.......................500..............................De Clerck
1970.......................180............................Trachman et.al.
2001.........................32.5 ........................Dostalek et. al.


</ext>

[Source: MBAA TQ vol. 41 no.1 2004]



This paper outlines a device used inline in breweries to bring up the copper concentration to 69 ug/L while reducing the Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg gas) to 4 ug/L. That's ppm.


BTW, you aren't trolling. Neither am I. What we are engaging in is intelligent discourse and debate on an aspect of our hobby, on a forum supposedly in existence to engage in that very thing Knowledge is power, ignorance is no excuse with the learning resources we have in today's world.

.

[level Joe]

Harry
Thanks, I never thought to search for information with the WHO, lots to go thru but not tonight as its getting late.
Funny though, one file (12.31 copper) I did look at mentioned an old study of dogs. It was too bad it didn’t mention what breeds were used. The reason its is funny is that I already ran across one article on copper toxicosis and how it affects the Bedlington Terrier, Doberman Pinscher and West Highland White Terrier and I was getting frustrated that I couldn’t find good information about how dangerous levels are introduced in humans but dogs was no problem (it is the dog version of Wilsons disease if I understand it right).

I have read part of your dissertation that you posted a while back when aluminum and/or Galvanized metal was the discussion of choice. I can’t remember.

So much to read, but my eyes are just not up for it now.

[Stillhead]

Good info. A ppm is mg/L though. ug/L is a part per billion.

[The Chemist]

Good God. I know I've been away for a while, but still on the plastic thing?

ONE LAST TIME--hopefully. SOME plastics are okay to store LOW PROOF alcohol in (polycarbonates only, please--unless you really CAN afford PTFE)--NO PLASTIC is good for hot or high proof alcohol.

Don't do it. Don't argue. Or at least don't blame ME if there's ever a problem.

And if your worried about the copper content of your booze--you might want to think about cutting back...

[theholymackerel]

Thankyou chemist.

For all ya'll who don't know about the Chemist, he's actually a chemist AND he works in the alcohol industry.

No need for ya'll to trust my words on the plastic controversy, but please heed his.

[xylic75]

Thankyou chemist.

For all ya'll who don't know about the Chemist, he's actually a chemist AND he works in the alcohol industry.

No need for ya'll to trust my words on the plastic controversy, but please heed his.

I do have the question of why is PGA available in plastic in the liquor store though?

I wouldn't drink it, but its obviously there for imbibing. The ever popular EverClear is even available in plastic jugs.

Edit : Not attempting to start this argument back up again, just curious. By this fact there is at least some plastic that is fine for high proof alcohol. Granted, its not hot alcohol, which is where this conversation started in the first place.

[The Chemist]

In the course of my work, I've seen many, many plastic bottles with high proof spirits in them. Sent to me by the distillers. I have yet to find one sample that didn't contain detectable amounts of plasticizer. How much di-iso-octyl phthalate do YOU want to eat?

(I certainly don't mean to be argumentative on this most merry of days: I'm just strongly advising against the use of plastics where, in my opinion, they don't belong.)

[Sinker]

ONE LAST TIME--hopefully. SOME plastics are okay to store LOW PROOF alcohol in (polycarbonates only, please--unless you really CAN afford PTFE)--NO PLASTIC is good for hot or high proof alcohol.

So what is the percentage definition of "low-strength"? Below approx 40%? (I presume hot ethanol means above about 40ºC.)

What material do you use/recommend to seal joins and form gaskets? Plain flour dough only? PTFE tape is very convenient, and I've only got three joins on my rig and they are all tapered fittings, which means only 3-4 turns of PTFE tape are needed on each join for a good seal. But I will happily go with flour dough if you strongly recommend it over PTFE.

Best of the Season