About those dreaded plastic containers

[Harry]

Uncle Jesse,

I'm disappointed that you chose to wield the heavy stick and lock the other topic on this subject. Preventing people from having ALL the facts is bad form and not worthy of you or this excellent forum resource. So I am forced to start a new topic to reveal ALL the facts.


You originally stated:

there's a reason not one plastic container is FDA or TTB approved for storage or shipment of distilled spirits.

I pointed out this was incorrect and that the TTB (ATF) had approved them 20 years ago and I gave a link to the material thus:
http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/index.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
85-7 Use of Polyethylene Containers for the Bottling and Packaging of Distilled Spirits and Denatured Spirits.

So you got all annoyed and posted this (without a link reference, but no matter). THEN YOU LOCKED THE THREAD!

it seems some people are stubborn or perhaps just don't believe me. so here is the 2006 info on plastic bottles from the TTB

Why are you attempting to counter the 1985/July ruling that with a much OLDER ruling ( 76-3)and claim it as being the current 2006 TTB position?
http://www.ttb.gov/procedures/index.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


FYI, the number designation the TTB gives these procedures & rulings is equivalent to the year (76) and month (3) of the ruling or procedure.

As you can plainly see, your reference is 9 YEARS OLDER than the reference I provided. Further, the TTB states at the top of each page that:

however, TTB cannot guarantee 100 percent accuracy. In addition, these procedures may be modified, superseded, or made obsolete by changes in laws and regulations

I suggest a memo to the TTB asking for clarification would be more appropriate that just a heavy-handed "I AM RIGHT" attitude.

No it's NOT that I don't believe you, but YES I am stubborn when it comes to truth & honesty about distilling & alcohol matters. Recent events have made me chase the truth more determinedly.

Of course if you wish yours to be the ONLY WORD on right & wrong in this hobby, then so be it. But people aren't stupid. They WILL find ALL the facts.

I guess now I will be banned for posting this, but if I am, that will be an indictment on the otherwise solid integrity of this group.

[xylic75]

Depending on where you are you can probably get 190 proof in plastic. Here in TN where I live it is only available in plastic (We buy it for cleaning delicate electronics, as the denatured available isn't usable for what we need it for.)

Perhaps he meant to bring out something about it being used in the distilling process.

Edit : My bad, not sure where he was going with that. At least half the liquor available at the more reputable liquor stores here in town comes in plastic.

[theholymackerel]

Howdy Harry.

I noticed a few things ya said that seemed to be said while stressed. I'd like to quote a few things ya said and reply to them.

I suggest a memo to the TTB asking for clarification would be more appropriate that just a heavy-handed "I AM RIGHT" attitude.

No it's NOT that I don't believe you, but YES I am stubborn when it comes to truth & honesty about distilling & alcohol matters. Recent events have made me chase the truth more determinedly.

I recall the recent alcohol and health post ya made where you spoke about yer family. I'm very sorry for yer family's sufferin'. I also understand yer zeal to find and speak the truth about alcohol related material safety matters. Please understand that the prejudice here about plastics is because we also have worries about health matters. Right or wrong we care. I'm sure you have done research and feel safe usin' plastics in conjunction with yer distllin'. If you feel safe great. We don't feel safe recomendin' it here... we try and stress what we feel are safe materials such as stainless steel, copper, glass, and flour and water. While you feel safe with yer research and have found plastic compounds you like, we would like to keep away from recomendin' them ourselves. We would like folks new to the hobby to stick to (ok...here comes the danger) "safe materials". As folks learn more and feel safe with more they are of course free to do as they please with their personal still at home. Myself, I would never use plastic in any form with alcohol. And that is my choice I'm free to make.

I guess now I will be banned for posting this, but if I am, that will be an indictment on the otherwise solid integrity of this group.

I guess we haven't told ya enough yer appreciated. Ok: Harry, yer appreciated. Infact, yer not just knowledgeable, yer a downright "resource".

No-one is gettin' banned... it's all good.

Ok mate?

[speedfreaksteve]

I'm not sure that this argument is going to ever get settled one way or another on here. There's no way to empirically prove anything either way.

All I know is that 99% of us all ferment our stuff in plastic. So obviously nobody seems worried about the effects of 15% alcohol and plastic going together.

Most of the liquor I've ever bought in the last few years also came in plastic bottles, largely my choice since I've been clumsy in the past and have broken my share of bottles.

Considering the consensus seems to be ok to ferment a wash into 10-18% alcohol I'm surprised there's so much opposition to the idea.

I currently think nothing of storing my 40% finished product in used plastic liquor bottles in the short term of a few weeks at least. I'm sure there's alot worse things I could be putting into my body.

[Harry]

THM,

Thanks for the recognition. I'm not looking for kudos, but I appreciate it greatly.
I also thank you for pointing out this group's policy on 'questionable materials'. That's a commonsense approach.

However, may I offer a suggestion? It would be more useful, particularly to newbies, if management were to say something like...

"We here who run this forum understand that the TTB and others have an approval policy on the use of plastics (various forms). However, until it can be proven irrefutably in the positive, this forum and its managers reserve the right to continue advising in the negative, as we are primarily concerned with the safety of all who engage in this wonderful hobby."

I could live with that. And I'm sure others will also. It would (hopefully) end the controversy.

We're all on the same side, although we have different ways of looking at it. Cheers & Merry Christmas!

.

[rkr]

One thing to remember in all these material discussions, fermented mash contains a variety of different boiling point alcohols - not only ethanol. Even if some material is ethanol tolerant propanol,butanol or ethyl acetate may corrode it. Although these other alcohols are present in miniscule amounts they are there and may cause material changes over extended time.

Another thing especially relevant to potstills, but also to reflux stills. It's quite typically when distilling at higher power the mash will boil rapidly and/or foam causing droplets and/or foam to enter the column/liebig. This stuff is extremely corrosive and will corrode any copper it touches. One reason people get blue distillate is ammonia in mash (typical for sugar mashes) getting in contact with copper (due to previously mentioned reason), reacting to copper sulphite? and coming out with product. The question, how light shade of blue can you detect in your product? That stuff is not healthy by any means.

Well, yet another angle of view to this discussion.

Cheers, Riku

[rkr]

What's too fast and what's not really depends on many parameters. Mash type (sugar mashes won't usually foam), boiler size and dimensions, how much it's filled etc. The only way to be sure is to add power untill things go wrong and them back up a bit. Just like the russian method of tightening screws

Cheers, Riku

[stillvodka]

Why anybody would want to use plastic , i just don't understand it, cheap horrible stuff, with all the other wonderful materials out there especially copper, i love Copper and there is no doubt about it's safety, they have been using it for centuries in Scotland making wonderful whiskies, There is no need for plastic in this hobby of ours, look at all the distilleries around the world are there any that use plastic, if there is, i would be totally surprised, and i would make sure i avoided drinking any of the spirits they produce, not just for safety reasons but i would feel that they are making spirits in the wrong manner and its just the wrong thing to do in the anciant art of distilling.

[George McKree]

If I may make a comment: saing "plastics" is just like saying "metals". You see, not all metals are safe to use, that's why everyone says "copper" or "Stainless steel". It's just the same with plastics. So it would certainly make things a lot clearer if you stopped saying "plastics", it's too general. Be specific, like "High density polyethylene" or something.

After all it's everyones personal decision.
I use copper. It just looks better. Plastics (thought about HD-PET) is simply ugly. It's easier to get all those fancy fittings and valves, at least where i live. And common plastics don't conduct heat sufficiently for a heat exchanger.

[riff42]

Why anybody would want to use plastic , i just don't understand it, cheap horrible stuff, with all the other wonderful materials out there especially copper, i love Copper and there is no doubt about it's safety, they have been using it for centuries in Scotland making wonderful whiskies, There is no need for plastic in this hobby of ours, look at all the distilleries around the world are there any that use plastic, if there is, i would be totally surprised, and i would make sure i avoided drinking any of the spirits they produce, not just for safety reasons but i would feel that they are making spirits in the wrong manner and its just the wrong thing to do in the anciant art of distilling.

Cheap plastic? Well, I don't enjoy buying 300$ copper jugs just to store distillate in. I ended up with 2 gallons on my last run, put in free glass jugs I have. Would I use plastic? Why not. Smirinof puts their vodka in plastic. Seagrams puts gin in plastic. How can they be wrong, and still be allowed to distill and sell? Also, centries ago, they didn't HAVE plastic.
Plus, we are talking about FDA approved plastics, HD stuff. Not dollar store plastic drinking cups.
WHICH hold up to 99% isopropol.....just not acetone.

anyways...just pointing out.

[stillvodka]

Smirinof puts their vodka in plastic. Seagrams puts gin in plastic.

I have never seen Smirnoff in plastic bottles where i come from, i am sure just wouldn't work. if someone gave me a bottle of top notch Brandy for Christmas or birthday in a plastic bottle, it just wouldn't feel the same

Put it this way then, how would you feel about having friends and family or someone important around for Dinner and having them eat off plastic dinner service, it's just things you don't do

And as chemical properties, plastic is plastic don't matter what, if it feels like plastic looks like it and its not copper glass or stainless steel or wood don't use it there are alternatives, we are not forced to use the stuff in the distilling hobby of ours

[speedfreaksteve]

Most people I know wouldn't really care if their vodka, gin or rum comes in a plastic bottle. For top shelf liquors and most whiskeys, you're right it wouldn't feel right to pour a glass of 12 year old Scotch out of a plastic bottle. Same goes with wine which they are trying to start selling here in tetrapacks, basically big juice boxes.

Pretty much everything comes in plastic these days. Remember when Coke only came in glass bottles about 20 years ago? I sure do, and I thought the plastic bottles were strange at first.

As far as distilling, I wouldn't trust anything except stainless steel or copper for a boiler and copper for piping.

The only plastic my product ever touches is the end product which is already cut to 40%.

[Hackers]

Just imagine going to the liquour store and finding your favourite 12 year old whisky was now in a"'metal" bottle, now wouldn't that seem strange, even if the metal was copper I don't think I would be keen to drink it. Just imagine the chemical reactions that would take place over a 4-6 month "metal bottle" shelf life

Metals have their place, just plastics do and a blanket statement that plastics are bad and metals are good when it comes to alcohol does not (excuse the pun) wash with me at least.

I know I ferment in plastic containers and I sometimes store 40% alcohol in plastic containers (though I prefer to use glass carboys, I must admit) and I also know I don't use plastics in the distilling process (where heat is added) and I also know that the wine industry is moving more and more to plastic corks (even for top of the line wines) and that I can buy 40% spirits in plastic and 50% liqueuers in plastic as well.

Times they are a changin and at the end of the day the most poisinous substance of this whole hobby that we put into our body is the alcohol itself not that that is going to stop me or probably anybody else

Have a Merry Xmas everyone (It's summer in NZ)

[stillvodka]

The point is, Glass for bottling spirits have gone on for years, it's tried and tested, time as given it the all clear as for safety, copper, stainless steel for distilling spirits we also know is safe, and they all actually look good , that might not matter to some but i bet it do to most.

[runingkind]

I live in the states in a small place where the sunshine is pumped in.All the old shiners here use glass,but a lot of the spirits from the stores come in plastic.Me I store in glass.You can buy 12 qt.jars for $7.00

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL

[Harry]

Right. So from the replies to this thread from people in the US, together with the info from the TTB, it's blatantly obvious that Stateside, booze is available legally in plastic packaging. Therefore, the longer that "sticky" remains up that tries to say it "ain't so", the more it looks like it's a case of "we're right, you're wrong".
The 'sticky' needs to go. It gives a biased opinion, not worthy of this forum and what it stands for.

.

[Tater]

Gee harry its nice of you to decide whats right for this fourm. If your so unhappy here let me be the first to remind you thats theres other fourms you can visit.We are sorry about your family problems but why dont you find somewhere else to take out your frustrations please.

[Harry]

This has absolutely nothing to do with my family problems, tater.

Besides, I thought you were going to disregard all future posts from me, at least that's what you said in your latest private email.

This is about UJ trying to snow your members with erronious information. It ain't facts, it's biased and heavy-handed dictatorship. If you guys can't read and interpret the info (current) from the TTB, then that's not my problem.

But you leave yourselves wide open to being dismissed as one-eyed, self-serving people who WILL have their view read as gospel regardless of ALL documentation to the contrary. Is THAT how you want to present this forum to the public????

.

[Tater]

No you suggest that and I told you I could respect the work even if I no longer had any respect for the man. And if you feel that way WHY DONT YOU GO ELSEWHERE.

[Harry]

Tater, regardless of what you dearly wish of me, I won't go. Well not willingly, at any rate. You have the power to ban me, so be it, But you will have to face all your members on that score as a "please explain".

Fer chrissakes face the facts, man. I don't give a rat's ass whether people use, or don't use plastics. That's NOT the issue!!!! The issue is that your Administrators try to bury all opinions of dissent with bullshit! Locking threads against possible comment??!!? Where's the TRUTH in this forum?? I thought we were all on the same side!, That of giving QUALITY info to those who requested it. A difference of opinion can be presented as just that, a debate. Locked threads is crap, and anybody with an ounce of brains can see it's biased, and dictatorial. You lose a great deal of credibility in this.

How 'bout we work for the common good? that of educating the masses on the right way to conduct this hobby????

.

[Tater]

My issue isnt with the subject matter its with your posts.Go back a bit and read how you come across in some of your older post and compare them to now.If you have a problem with jessie why dont ya write him a im or email.When I had a problem with you thats what I did first.And this ban me this and ban me that Harry is that really you?????????????

[Harry]

I did that. Didn't get a reply. You want the transcript? I'll mail it to Ya, if'n ya want.

[Tater]

Jessies Got a lot on his plate right now . But hes never been fast to reply since Ive been on fourm. Give it some time.

[Harry]

We've all got loads on our plate,, check yer PM email.

[mtnwalker2]

Hello runningkind,

12 qt jugs would be perfect for me also.

Would you share where you can find them? I have been looking in the stores around here, but with no luck.

Thanks, and a fantastic Christmas to you and all!

[jmc91199]

This is getting old. You all need to leave the personal stuff at the door or take it off line.

[stillvodka]

If i remember, Swag got in a bit of bother over this a while back.

[goose eye]

think he talkin bout a case of 1 quart jugs for 7.00

im just passin thru but there aint no future in this fuedin
if this is off topic then erase it dont use it to start another post like the runnin likker. thank you

[Tater]

Hello runningkind,

12 qt jugs would be perfect for me also.

Would you share where you can find them? I have been looking in the stores around here, but with no luck.

Thanks, and a fantastic Christmas to you and all!

This time year there hard to find. Try small country stores or supermarkets. ask for canning jars.They come in qts pints and 1/2 pints most places 1/2 gallon in some.At walmart this spring they were 6 bucks a case for qt jars

[xylic75]

Hello runningkind,

12 qt jugs would be perfect for me also.

Would you share where you can find them? I have been looking in the stores around here, but with no luck.

Thanks, and a fantastic Christmas to you and all!

Grocery Store. Ask a clerk where the canning jars are. If they ask, you're getting prepared to can your [insert vegetable here] next year.