I would like to convert on of my two beer kegs from propane to electric for winter time distilling. I'm 99.9% sure these kegs are aluminium. I was told some time ago that to weld in the 1" female copper flange that the hot water tank heating element will screw into.
It has been suggested to me before by welders on this forum that this needed to be tig welded. And that I should just take it to a local weld shop and have them do it, once I drill the hole for the flange.
I was concidering this until I was laid off from my job earlier this year. It just so happens that I'm now in my 10th week of a 16 week welding course. We're now moving on from stick and starting to work with mig. Before class is over we will also be working with tig as well.
As I said, I nearly possitive these are aluminium kegs. I'll know for sure when I go to drill the hole. If it drills as easy as I expect, it's aluminium. If it's slow going and starts dulling my bit, then there's that slightest chance it's stainless.
If it's aluminium what kind of electrode will I need? If it's stainless I assume I'll need a different type of electrode...
thanks,
Jaxom
Welding issues
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If you practiced quite a lot on oyx/acc, then tig is easy. Tig and oyx are very similar. They are both pretty slow (tig is faster though), and the arc coming off the tig behaves a lot like oxy.
However, most likely, the keg you have is stainless. Some of the VERY old kegs were aluminum. I think most of those, had a bung in the side of the keg, and took a different tap than a sankey keg. If the kegs you have are sankey type (a 2 inch twist on tap fitting on the top of the keg with a ball in the middle of the tap valve, and usually they have a upper and lower skirt), then you have (most likely) a stainless sankey keg.
I am not sure you will be able to weld SS to copper. Also, I am not sure how easy AL to CU welds would be. I think they can be done, but are pretty darn advanced (due to different melting temps). Even SS to mild steel is not the easiest thing to do. It can be done (and I have done so with a tig, and did not think it was overly hard). I also just finished a 8 week non-credit intro to welding course.
If you are doing SS to CU, then you most likely will have to braze the connection. A proper brazed joint should be more than strong enough, and brazing does not melt your base metals, so joining metals of dissimilar melting points is not a problem.
H.
However, most likely, the keg you have is stainless. Some of the VERY old kegs were aluminum. I think most of those, had a bung in the side of the keg, and took a different tap than a sankey keg. If the kegs you have are sankey type (a 2 inch twist on tap fitting on the top of the keg with a ball in the middle of the tap valve, and usually they have a upper and lower skirt), then you have (most likely) a stainless sankey keg.
I am not sure you will be able to weld SS to copper. Also, I am not sure how easy AL to CU welds would be. I think they can be done, but are pretty darn advanced (due to different melting temps). Even SS to mild steel is not the easiest thing to do. It can be done (and I have done so with a tig, and did not think it was overly hard). I also just finished a 8 week non-credit intro to welding course.
If you are doing SS to CU, then you most likely will have to braze the connection. A proper brazed joint should be more than strong enough, and brazing does not melt your base metals, so joining metals of dissimilar melting points is not a problem.
H.
Yes, you can oyx braze. I would use a brass rod (flux coated brass brazing rod). Cut your hole tight, and it should braze nicely, and be more than strong enough.
I think that attaching a heater like this would be beyond what you would want to do with silver solder, but brazing will work perfectly.
If the keg IS stainless, and if you can get an steel fitting, then you can easily weld with anything (except oxy, as it is not a great way to weld stainless). mig or stick work great with SS, and tig works really good.
H.
I think that attaching a heater like this would be beyond what you would want to do with silver solder, but brazing will work perfectly.
If the keg IS stainless, and if you can get an steel fitting, then you can easily weld with anything (except oxy, as it is not a great way to weld stainless). mig or stick work great with SS, and tig works really good.
H.
I guess my first step is to determine just exactilly what the keg is made of. As I mentioned in my orginal post, would how easily I can drill through it be a good test of which metal it is? I mentioned that I have a step drill bit, but that will only give me a pile of shavings. Someplace around here I have a circle cutter, but I'm not sure if the blade will cut either metal. That would give me a larger piece to determine what it is...
Jaxom
Jaxom
Make sure you use a cutting compound, it'll slice through the stainless like a hot knife through butter."Jaxom"
Someplace around here I have a circle cutter, but I'm not sure if the blade will cut either metal.
Jaxom
It is most absurdly said, in popular language, of any man, that he is disguised in liquor; for, on the contrary, most men are disguised by sobriety. ~Thomas de Quincy, Confessions of an English Opium-Eater, 1856
It won’t attract to a good grade of stainless like is used in kegs and if the keg is aluminum or stainless the magnet won’t stick.Hackers
A magnet would be a good test. Aluminium doesn't exacly attract magnets
Do a scratch test with a knife, use firm pressure and drag the point of the knife sideways. If its aluminum it’s easy to remove metal or at least make a very noticeable scratch in it, if it’s stainless you might leave a faint scratch. How easily you can drill through it would probably also tell you what you want to know but its more destructive.
As for the hole saw, you can try if you want but if its for wood I’d bet you’ll only get part of the way through (if that far) before it gets so dull it wont cut no matter what cutting compound you are using. It’s hard to say, don’t know what you’ve got.
Salus populi suprema est lex. [L.] The safety of the people is the highest law.
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Uncle Remus
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Also aluminum has a much lower melting temp than stainless. Take a scrap piece and hit it with some oxy acetylene, If it's aluminum it will melt readily, stainless you'll need to get cherry red before it will start to melt. You should also be able to tell by weight, an aluminum keg is very light compared to a ss one.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day and drink beer.
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junkyard dawg
- Master of Distillation
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This is a start,
http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy24_4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
this is a test for ferrous metals, but it gives you a good insight on how to identify metals. Aluminum is very soft compared to stainless. I haven't worked on much aluminum but I don't think it sparks much, if at all. You should have no trouble telling the difference.
http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy24_4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
this is a test for ferrous metals, but it gives you a good insight on how to identify metals. Aluminum is very soft compared to stainless. I haven't worked on much aluminum but I don't think it sparks much, if at all. You should have no trouble telling the difference.
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speedfreaksteve
- Swill Maker
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- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Ah, finally had a chance to drag my keg into class. Did a few tests on it, and determined tha the keg is stainless! So, now I'm left with a stainless keg and a copper fitting. Talked to a couple of local plumbing stores (not big box like home depot or lowes), two said they couldn't get a stainless fitting, and the one that said they could, quoated me a price nearly double that of what the keg costs!
Which would be the best route to go now? Pay the extra $$$ for the stainless fitting, so I can mig them together... or get brass rods and braise them together? If I go the stainless route, I can do that in class, but if I braise it, I'm on my own....(instructor won't touch copper).
Jax
Which would be the best route to go now? Pay the extra $$$ for the stainless fitting, so I can mig them together... or get brass rods and braise them together? If I go the stainless route, I can do that in class, but if I braise it, I'm on my own....(instructor won't touch copper).
Jax
Just braze it. Brazing will make a clean, leak proof, strong connection. Just be sure to make the hole in the keg be a pretty tight fit to the connector you are putting on. SS and copper will braze easily, and look pretty good.
I do not know if silver soldering would stick correctly to the SS. I know it would to the copper, but I am unsure about its hold on the SS. Proper brazing will have no problem at all.
If you are "on your own", then do enough practice in brazing before starting on this project. Practice with scrap mild steel, and be sure to practice T joints and not just an overlapped joint. What you will be dealing with will be similar to a T joint. If you can, you might also want to take some scrap copper piping, and braze it to a piece of SS, just to get a feel for that, but I bet if you practice a bit, then brazing the connector to your keg will be very easy to do. In the class I just completed, I spent a lot of time practicing brazing, and at first, my joints looked HORRIBLE. but all of a sudden, things "clicked", and it actually became very easy to get a very good looking brazed joint. The nice thing about brazing, is if you do make a mistake, you can simply keep working it, and get it to be successful. You can think of it as half way between welding, and sweat soldering. It has the characteristics of both of them.
H.
I do not know if silver soldering would stick correctly to the SS. I know it would to the copper, but I am unsure about its hold on the SS. Proper brazing will have no problem at all.
If you are "on your own", then do enough practice in brazing before starting on this project. Practice with scrap mild steel, and be sure to practice T joints and not just an overlapped joint. What you will be dealing with will be similar to a T joint. If you can, you might also want to take some scrap copper piping, and braze it to a piece of SS, just to get a feel for that, but I bet if you practice a bit, then brazing the connector to your keg will be very easy to do. In the class I just completed, I spent a lot of time practicing brazing, and at first, my joints looked HORRIBLE. but all of a sudden, things "clicked", and it actually became very easy to get a very good looking brazed joint. The nice thing about brazing, is if you do make a mistake, you can simply keep working it, and get it to be successful. You can think of it as half way between welding, and sweat soldering. It has the characteristics of both of them.
H.
http://buyfittingsonline.com/Fittings/cat372_1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I've decided to go ahead and mig this together. Due to some changes in class we're not going to be convering tig at all. Not withstanding, I already have a spool of 308 stainless wire. Just have to get the $$$ together and order the stainless fitting.
Thanks all that responded to this thread, Happy New Years!
Jaxom
Thanks all that responded to this thread, Happy New Years!
Jaxom
think you should use 304 cause the keg is 304 if im not mistaken. and when welding diffrent kinds of stainless (304 to 308) or somthing you wanna go with fillerwire of the better grade (304). but i dont think it would make too big of a diffrence to use the 308. this is just what ive read from welding books that strive for the best welds possible. ....hey you could always just throw that keg and get a plastic bucket still. dont you know thats what all the best spirits are made with!