Jack Daniels Mash

[Husker]

Rebel_Yell
partsbill,

JD uses new, charred, white oak barrels to age their drink. They destroy these barrels after use. Cut them in half and sell for planters.

Here's a read about what makes bourbon and Tennessee whiskey unique.
http://www.wildturkeybourbon.com/faq.asp

Actually a large majority of JD barrels are not destroyed (the ones that still can hold a seal. Many of them are sold to the tabasco company. 100% of the barrels tabasco uses are used JD barrels (they also only use them one time). They vinegar "ferment" their pepper mash for 3 years. Top of the kegs are salt covered, thus allowing the CO2 to bubble out the salt plug.

H.

[Rebel_Yell]

Thanks Husker.
Ya learn something everyday. That makes sense. Barrels are expensive. I can see a distillery trying to make as much as they can from their used goods. I know that the local breweries have no problem selling the spent grains to the highest bidders.

[pintoshine]

You know that Jim Beam, Bookers, Knob Creek and several others are owned by the same company. They all can have shortages or overages from time to time due to planning, equipment failures, over production, too much demand whaterver. But the part I bet you didn't know is that the barrels aged barrels of raw, unblended whiskey have lots of variation. The barrels get stored all over the place, reguardless of the name brand and are traded around depending on the need of one company or another. As long as the taxes are paid to get them out of the warehouse the destination of the barrel is wherever the need for a particular flavor is in need at the time. The thing that distinguishes one brand form another is the art of the blender. The blender will take several parts of different flavored barrles and blend them together to get the "Standard" for whichever brand is being made at the time.
Some of the really good barrels become "barrel select" others can be so bad as to be rectified and become pure grain. Some of the pure grain and lesser quality barrels may even become a "blended" whiskey such as "Beam's Eight Star" which is really not that bad and tastes quite like young "rested" oak infused sugar mash.
One of the "Black" sheep in Kentucky, owned by Brown foreman is Early Times. This is not a bourbon because they use "Used" barrels. So the label says "Sour Mash" It is lighter than Beam or Jack but has that characteristic corn flavor. I Enjoy sippin this once in a while.
Now let me say a word about Barton. Barton Brands is a big company also. But they have never tried to compete in the Bourbon market a lot. But I have to tell you that for a clean after taste and and lack of morning after effects, Very Old parton has done itself proud. I consider VOB a chugging whiskey.

I guess the point is, the blenders hitting that "Standard" is what all the companies are doing reguardless of whose barrel it comes from.

[partsbill]

That was quite informative there pinto. It would make sense that oak from one tree to the next could be quite different. Yet since it seems so much of the caramalization, color, and sugars come from the barrel that they would have been cultivating groves of oak trees in similar fashion to southern yellow pines. Now I know that oak grows much slower but if "quality" barrel are to be had, then they should come from roughly the same tree stock, area, soil, climate.

Uncle Jesse, you stated that JD would be better if they use quality barrels. Your take on the barrel quality.

[Rebel_Yell]

That is very informative Pintoshine.
I know that corp. from doing some work on one of their brands.
I learned a little more today...

[TownDrunk]

Pinto I gotta call BS.

All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.

JD and all those other brands have their own warehouses that their filled barrels are stored in. They don't store all over and trade around barrels. Each brand's hooch is unique. Why do you think they are so protective of their yeast strains!

Where did you get your information?

[masonjar]

Slightly unrelated question:

What would happen if you built an oak box instead of a barrel? It seems that you could make some tongue-and-groove edges pretty easily with a router and you could use straps to press the pieces together tightly to stop leaks. Wouldn't this be effectively the same thing as a barrel but much cheaper? Has anyone tried this?

[stoker]

I think you would have leaks. Because of the shape of a barrel, the wood is pressed on each other. you won't have that with a box.

at least, that's what I think, never tried nor heard anything like that

[Grayson_Stewart]

Square "barrels" have been discussed here or over at yahoo before. The benefit of round barrels is the arch. As the wood is pressed together and swollens to create a seal, the structure becomes stronger with each stave supporting the adjacent stave.

A square box would have flat sides. Even if you bound the box tightly, there would be no internal strength and a slight bump on the outside would cause the box to collapse.

For an example, try this....carefully stand on an empty soda/beer can without crushing it and then have someone tap the side of that can.

[Rebel_Yell]

TownDrunk
All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.

http://www.brown-forman.com/brands/

[Husker]

Grayson_Stewart
Square "barrels" have been discussed here or over at yahoo before. The benefit of round barrels is the arch. As the wood is pressed together and swollens to create a seal, the structure becomes stronger with each stave supporting the adjacent stave.

A square box would have flat sides. Even if you bound the box tightly, there would be no internal strength and a slight bump on the outside would cause the box to collapse.

For an example, try this....carefully stand on an empty soda/beer can without crushing it and then have someone tap the side of that can.

Yes, but boxes could be packed thightly together (and solidly against the floor, thus having wall strength of the "whole" group. I certainly do not know if this is "workable", but it might be. To drain, simply have a 2.5" bung in the top, that you knock out after "years", and insert a 2" hose from a pump, and pump it out. Thus, a whole "floor would be packed with aiging boxes, and would drain all at the same time.

Just an idea. I do not know if it is workable at all, but would save having to have a master cooper and all the cost/waste of building round barrels.

H.

[stoker]

those boxes just won't hold the liquid.

[mtnwalker2]

Slightly unrelated question:

What would happen if you built an oak box instead of a barrel? It seems that you could make some tongue-and-groove edges pretty easily with a router and you could use straps to press the pieces together tightly to stop leaks. Wouldn't this be effectively the same thing as a barrel but much cheaper? Has anyone tried this?

Flat bottomed jon boat with a lid? Mine never leaked, water anyhow. Would think you would lose a lot to angels, though.

[Big J]

TownDrunk
All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.

http://www.brown-forman.com/brands/

Not all the brands listed there are owned by Brown-Forman, its a mix of the brands they own and the ones they distribute. I don't know which are which, but they are all just mixed in together. For example, Amarula is a brand owned by Distell here in South Africa, but distributed by Brown Forman in the US.

[Rebel_Yell]

Three times wrong on a thread... I'll just stfu

[pintoshine]

Riddle me this batman.

Here is an article about the fire in 96 that destroyed 7 Heaven Hill warehouses and the distillery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Hill

On November 7th, 1996, Heaven Hill's production plant was almost completely destroyed by fire; the company's warehouses were destroyed, and over 90,000 gallons of alcohol lost. The company survived the next several years through the provision of production capacity by its fellow local bourbon labels, Brown-Forman and Jim Beam, until its purchase and adaptation of the new Heaven Hill Bernheim distillery in Louisville. While fermenting, mashing, and distilling occurs at the new distillery, aging, bottling, and shipping still occur in Bardstown.

http://www.fireworld.com/ifw_articles/whisky_river.php

Heaven Hill, the nation's largest family-owned distillery, does not maintain a fire brigade at its facility. Makers of Evan Williams and Elijah Craig bourbon, Heaven Hill lost inventory amounted to 13.9 percent of its whisky holdings. The company owns the world's second largest inventory of bourbon.

Now here is the riddle, according to the second article, which states,"The company owns the world's second largest inventory of bourbon." What does a little, family owned company, whose brands all combined don't even come close to Jack Daniels, do with all that bourbon?

George Dickel was shut down from 1999 to 2003. How is it that they never missed a beat producing No.8 and No.12? Maybe Jack will help out his neighbor since he was the only other one that uses the charred maple filter?

http://www.wztv.com/cgi-bin/csNews.cgi? ... d=1805&op=

If my math is correct, 1999 + 8 = 2007. Will the No.8 leave the shelves for 4 years starting this year, let's wait and see. 1999 + 12 = 2011. Will the No.12 go away then for four years?

I have been at the loading dock of Jim Beam in Clermont, I only live 17 mile from there, and loaded up my truck with barrel heads and staves from broken barrels for fire wood, from at least 5 different distilleries. These were barrels that were scrapped because the staves were cracked from abuse, bungs ripped out opening the barrel, un reparable leakers in other word. All the barrels were emptied on the same day at the same place and bottling one brand, Jim Beam.

Read a little history about how the distilleries have helped each other out through hard times. Read about how the distillers, making whiskey for export, or medicinal reasons during prohibition helped each other out to get started up again.

There are a couple good books out there about the trade.
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Bourbon ... 1563114860
and
http://www.amazon.com/Bourbon-Straight- ... 86-8564152


Don't believe all that tourist hype about the "protected" yeast. I can take a tour of Maker's Mark and walk out with a sample of the stuff directly from the fermenter and probably Four Roses two. I definately could propogate it and have all I wanted from just a drop. They used to let you taste it if you wanted. It's all marketing.

Back 150 years ago maybe that was a thing. But then there were people who slept with their sour dough starters to keep the starters from freezing.

Advertising will give you a lot of glory and hype. Business is business.

[TownDrunk]

OKay I stand corrected. Don't get all bent outta shape over it. I was wrong. That was some good reading, thankyou!

[goose eye]

some folks been usein oak plywood to make squar barrels for awhile.
along bottom an along seems on inside they nail a oak 2x4. they brace from outside 2 or 3 sets of 2x4s pinwheeled around like they do when formin up boxs to be poured with concrete. they then throw a ductin over top to keep rain out. mostly they doin corn
so im tole

[mtnwalker2]

some folks been usein oak plywood to make squar barrels for awhile.
along bottom an along seems on inside they nail a oak 2x4. they brace from outside 2 or 3 sets of 2x4s pinwheeled around like they do when formin up boxs to be poured with concrete. they then throw a ductin over top to keep rain out. mostly they doin corn
so im tole

You're the cutting edge of historical, and sometimes practical advancement. may need to use some of this lore- times get tough.

[possum]

Gooseye, this is for mash boxes ?

[masonjar]

No, he's talking about aging in oak boxes instead of barrels. I asked if anyone had tried it because it seemed like a cheaper way.

My fault for hijacking the thread.

[possum]

I've heard of mash boxes like that, but I never heard tell of aging in big boxes. Plywood has some funky stuff in its glue (at least it used to).

[goose eye]

round here them boxs was for makein corn beer. them boys wont much into agein
think one of them 4x8 boxs hold about 300 gal of beer.
so im tole

[Rocky_Creek]

It's important to smell the differance between lore and bulls..t.

And even if someone did it doesn't mean it isn't stupid and dangerous.

[goose eye]

rocky creek you sayin that aint never no one made corn beer in oak plywood boxs.
if you are that means you no everythang an there aint no hope for you.
can you smell that


if you sayin it dangerous cause of cemicals well that mite be but back
then we didnt no what we no today.
the question was about how strong squar boxs was an how they wouldnt hold together.

[pintoshine]

Goose, how deep were'em boxes. 4x4x8 ft is 950 gallons.

[goose eye]

pintoshine i stand corected. do 4x4x4 work out minus corn. if it do then
that my answer

[jmashspirits14]

Pinto I gotta call BS.

All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.

JD and all those other brands have their own warehouses that their filled barrels are stored in. They don't store all over and trade around barrels. Each brand's hooch is unique. Why do you think they are so protective of their yeast strains!

Where did you get your information?

I know this post is old but I have to fix this information. Distilleries DO sell and trade around their whiskeys especially unaged spirits. For different reasons but mostly for blending. When the Heaven and Hell distillery burnt they lost thousands of gallons of aging whuskey and the bourbon brotherhood Jim Beam, Makers Mark, Four Roses, Jack Daniels, and some others gave Heaven and Hell whiskey, sold them whiskey, and even made thier whiskey in thier own distilleries to help them through that loss. So yes commercial distilleries do in fact sell and trade around overstock. Blended whiskeys that arent single blends can contain whiskey from many different distilleries.

Sorry, all. Just wanted to fix that tid bit of misinformation. No disrespect to anyone, that statement just isnt true. Also pintoshine I believe is a distilling consultant so he would kbow what he is talking about.