My dumb ball valve

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:34 pm

I bought a ball valve from lowes and put it right after my condenser to use in place of a needle valve.

My column was all pre-welded, and I don't know anything about welding, so I am fairly stuck with it as is. I guess I don't know much about the concept of the needle valve, because when I installed my ball valve, after only about 15 minutes of boiling it caused my bung and thermometer to pop off.

I realize that the steam is causing pressure build-up, but I have read so many places to let my column reach full equilibrium before turning on the needle valve. Sorry if this is a retarded question, but please give me a little insight on the matter.

Loki

BW Redneck · Post by **BW Redneck** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:55 pm

Ball valve? From what I understand, "ball valves" are those quarter turn shutoff valves used on water supplies.

I wouldn't dare use one of those, as they are fairly inaccurate devices for such a small quantity of liquid.

Could you give us a picture of what you have, or at least a better description?

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:13 pm

I dont know what style column you have but it must be a closed system. To do 100% reflux you have to have a open system,or you will build up preasure,and blow out your thermo.or blow something up.
wineo

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:15 pm

but still, to achieve equilibrium the needle valve must be fully closed, that's not the problem. You need to have the top of your column open to allow the Co2 to escape. Never put a bung on top of the column, if the condenser and element are matched correctly all etoh vapours will be knocked down. The ball valve just won't allow a fine enough control to maintain 1 drop per second.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:16 pm

Depending upon your still, you should NOT have anything constricting the final output.

It sounds like your still is what is called an "internal reflux". With a still like that, there is no vent to the outside, OTHER than at the end of the condenser. To control the reflux (as much as you can), you use the cooling water. The ONLY time you will use some sort of valve to limit the take off, is when the still (usually the top of it's condenser), is vented to the atmosphere. In still designs like this (liquid management, such as the offset, or the bokabob inline), you use a valve to return a fraction (usually a large fraction) of the condensed product, and bleed off a fraction of it. With a still like that, there is no pressure build up, because any vapor that is not knocked down by the condenser would simply vent right out the top of the condenser.

I would STRONGLY recommend NOT using a valve. You will simply have your still build pressure, and explode (even if it is a tiny explosion). You still will end up hurting yourself, or others.

H.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:28 pm

Awesome. I am working on producing a neutral spirit, and I have read that 100% reflux is important. Am I going to have a handicap with my still, as it has no vent and no way to shut off the flow?

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:46 pm

Loki wrote:Awesome. I am working on producing a neutral spirit, and I have read that 100% reflux is important. Am I going to have a handicap with my still, as it has no vent and no way to shut off the flow?

Yes, the "internal reflux" design of a still is a serious handicap. It "can" make a neutral, but it is certainly MUCH less than optimal in performance of some of the better designs in stills, which have actual control over the process.

With practice, you "can" get one of these to work. You need to know how much this still produces when there is no reflux (i.e. do NOT run the cooling tubes in the column, and run this test using straight water). Once you know the max rate (using the amount of heat you will be inputting), then you can run the still, and turn on the column cooling, until say 1/4 of that rate is seen. If you are pulling off 1/4, then you have a 4 to 1 reflux ratio. The problem comes in the fact that the actual max throughput will change during the run, due to higher and then lower concentration of EtOH in the boiler. Again, I said "practice". This still can be used, but you will have a lot more of a learning curve to get it right.

It might be better to simply try to get a better still head, something that is more adjustable.

H.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 pm

Thanks for the wisdom. I know getting a really expensive still won't make me a better distiller, but I was wondering if any of these http://www.revenoor.com/merchant.ihtml?id=2&step=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow stills would be capable of making a great neutral spirit with proper practice on the still. I got some student loans in and I can't think of anything else to fill my workshop with other than a nice big still. I am actually only looking at something under $4,000, but there seem to be several options.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:59 pm

Just build a Bokakob, it's simple and it works. Man, I can not get over the fact how much money people are prepared to spend on a length of 2" with a slant plate and needle valve. It really is that simple.

Post by **HookLine** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:19 pm

$4000? Just to make a bit of drinking booze? Be cheaper to buy it retail.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:34 pm

I agree with Coops. for about $75 to $100, you can build one hell of a still. It will outperform most ANY still you would buy for $400.

The added benefit you get of building it yourself, is that you LEARN a hell of a lot, about how a still really works, when you research how to build it. You will end up making much better product with that knowledge.

H.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:34 pm

This is true, but I would like to look into doing some semi-micro distilling, and maybe something I could get licensed. Just hoping for a little advice about one of these stills producing pure neutral spirits.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:40 pm

Loki wrote:This is true, but I would like to look into doing some semi-micro distilling, and maybe something I could get licensed. Just hoping for a little advice about one of these stills producing pure neutral spirits.

You can license your own still.

Simply scribe a 1 on it, then tell the feds that the serial number is 1 and that you are the builder.

H.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:45 pm

Looking at the pics...I can't see a return line to the column, they look like vapour management stills...ie, the distillate output is controlled by the cooling water (which is the same you already have). They IMHO are way to overpriced. I haven't used one so bear in mind it is only MY opinion.

Edit...having looked at the 1 1/2 gallon job, I'm not exactly sure of the cooling and distillate paths.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:45 pm

It would be ok to possess I suppose. Unfortunately I'm sure I would get caught mid-run. And who knows, I might like to sell a bit of my liqueur. Almost everyone in a 3 county area has been fucked up on Loki a time or two, and most everyone loves it. I would like to be able to make enough to put a little in the local stores. But I would like something a little bit bigger than my little still. but I didn't know if any of those would be good for fractioning a neutral spirit.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:47 pm

That is the still that UJ bought for his commercial operation.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:50 pm

Yeah. I noticed that on his thread. I guess with the right packing and having 100% reflux I could make pure spirits though?

Post by **Husker** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:51 pm

Loki wrote:It would be ok to possess I suppose. Unfortunately I'm sure I would get caught mid-run. And who knows, I might like to sell a bit of my liqueur. Almost everyone in a 3 county area has been fucked up on Loki a time or two, and most everyone loves it. I would like to be able to make enough to put a little in the local stores. But I would like something a little bit bigger than my little still. but I didn't know if any of those would be good for fractioning a neutral spirit.

Any still is legal to posses but illegal to produce spirits in (your own build, or any commercial built still), until you get the proper licensing for fuel or for drinking, and file all paperwork, and pay any required bonding.

Your own still, can be just as legal as a commercial built one. The feds do not care. They simply want their tax money.

H.

showrguy · Post by **showrguy** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:00 am

i think you should consider yourself very luck that you did'nt get blown up with yer still...
but now you want to sell it (in stores too), you'll be lucky again if ya don't end up in jail......
just my opinion though..

jake · Post by **jake** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:08 am

loki its been awhile since ive been online (just got roadrunner)
but if I remember our stills are simmiler. I dont know what kind of modifications you have done; but it will take alot more than just attaching a ball valve. or any valve; ive been gathering parts myself.
now I need the time to practice copper to stainless sodering.
I want to be able to change back to my original condencer from my valved reflux.
so as to run as a pot still. ive got 3gal unhopped malt extract to ferment.
Tring to make some Irish.
sorry I took so long its been awile.