Thumper column for pot still design

[GingerBreadMan]

While I'm waiting for a final part to complete my still, I've been toying around with a design to add a thumper to my pot still. Yes I know, I could just build a reflux column, but I thought I would have fun imagineering stuff.

Here's my design (not entirely my original thinking, saw something similiar but overly complex - this is simple clean) -



Basically the way it works is the first vapors (green arrows) come out of the boiler up and then pass through the primary condenser. The vapors condense (blue arrow) and fall back into the pot.

Inside the pot is a vapor lock that fills up with distilate, this isolates the first distill from the second - in other words this is the thumper. The vapor lock heats up because it's in the boiling mash and a second vapor path (red arrow) flows back up the tube and out to the second condenser.

Anyways, it's an interesting thought experiment. Is there any reason why this wouldn't work? I also figure it would get more than just a thumper's worth of reflux.

Also, since the vapor lock would take a bit of time to fill up and work, the heads would come out first and there shouldn't be a problem separating heads from hearts.

[CoopsOz]

Will the thumper require charging at the start of the run?

[GingerBreadMan]

The idea is not to charge the thumper. At the begining of the run vapors will escape though the empty vapor lock so this would be a single distill. This is how you separate the heads.

The primary condenser should be strong enough to knock down the vapors to fill the vapor lock, this would then start the thumper action. No worries if the primary condenser knocks down too much vapor, the overflow goes back in the pot.

A thermometer could be placed before the secondary condenser and the temperature drop would indicate when the vapor lock is filled and thumper kicks in.

Edit: Of course, this could be entirely impossible and you would need to charge the thumper

[showrguy]

it looks to me like your vapor is gonna get confused, i don't see the point..
if your looking for a high % neutral spirit why dontcha just make a tall column, pack with copper mesh and run it slow, (fractionating)... you'll get a real high % and it is soooo simple to build, run, clean, ect..???
my thoughts........

[GingerBreadMan]

Definitely a reflux column would be best and easy to build, but I'm not going for neutral spirits. I'm trying for a double distill in one pass, the goal is to get 65-80% ABV as the output with plenty of flavour.

The diagram is a bit confusing, there are only two vapor paths, the green arrow and the red arrow. The blue arrow is condensed liquid falling back to the pot. I think this would work as a single plate, even if some of the condensed liquid (blue arrow) vaporizes in the column because of heat in the chamber and joins up with the red arrow vapor path.

I guess cleaning could be a problem, would have to build this so it can be taken apart as well.

[cannon.co.tn]

Why is the other end of the J tube that returns to the boiler open? Wouldn't it be better to make it closed so that none of the vapor escapes out the wrong end?

[GingerBreadMan]

The J tube is open for overflow.

My thinking is the J tube fills with distillate from the first distill. This would create a vapor lock, much like the vapor locks found to your bathroom/kitchen sink that prevent vapors from sewage to enter your house.

You need the overflow, because on the second distill water will be left behind as it distills the second time. The overflow just goes back into the pot.

Of course, I know nothing about the mechanics of pressure of gases, physics and such, so the vapors inside the pot could just blow past the vapor lock and this would just be a fancy copper ornament

[cannon.co.tn]

Of course, I know nothing about the mechanics of pressure of gases, physics and such, so the vapors inside the pot could just blow past the vapor lock and this would just be a fancy copper ornament

since the bottom of your J-tube is being heated by the boiler there is no vapor-lock effect. If any distillate accumulates in there at all the additional heat of the boiler will cook off the alcohol and there is no reason for it to go out one open end rather than another.

Also, you might want a plate of some sort to direct the "second runnings" into your "T." If you don't put one in the vapor will simply flow in the direction of least resistance (up) and get into a continual reflux.

[DestructoMutt]

If the J-tube is not charged initially, the vapor, through pressure buildup, will "escape" out the intended outlet for the secondary condesate (Yes, hot vapor rises, it also expands, and in a confined space, this will cause a pressure buildup). You will also have condesate from the primary condensor vaporising once it reaches the hot portion of the J-tube again, and it will partially follow your intended escape path (this will keep your vapor lock from ever filling on it's own). The vapor in the J-tube will split into two flows, in volume percent related to the size of the column and the intended escape path tube. The split flow is better explained in "The Compleat Distiller" under Vapor Management Head.

A sincere "nice attempt" and good for you to throw something out there for "the dogs to chew on".

[dog1976]

Very interesting design.
If you don't fill the J-tube first it my never fill up, the vapors are pushed up by more vapors boiling off. The vapors would be pushed up both pipes equally until they reached the distillate out tube. Then all distillate would go out the Distillate Out Tube(vent tube) and nothing would ever reach the condensing coil. This is because gravity would keep each tube equal and the distillate would flow out the vent tube.

I am still thinking on how it would work if you filled the J-tube first.

[jake]

looks to me as though it will act like a reflux. but slower and more of a chance something may clog the trap and go boom.
A reflux tower with little or no packing, still provides reflux back for a "second" distillation; and plenty of flavor.
more efficient than a pot, not as neutral as total reflux.
showrguy is right soooo simple.
BTW: I like the clear tubing you have on your stove tops condencer

[dog meat]

This design will cause pot puke from the boil. You must use a thumper to get the second in one pass. It is a failed design at best, but hopefully will give direction and open the way for new thought.

Best to you.

[dog1976]

Like I said in an earlier post, your design is very interesting.
If you fill the J-tube first, there can be a very wide range of results from this design.
The size of the condenser, the size of the J-tube, heat input, and the height of the J-tube for flood back are all variables. In theory if all these variables were sized right, you should be able to run this still as a straight pot still, a vapor management still, and a reflux still.

With no water running through the condensing coil, this would be a straight pot still.

Controlling the water to the condenser.
With a small amount of water going through the condenser, only condensing part of the vapor to liquid and letting some vapor past to go to the collection tube. This would be a vapor management still with reflux. Some high % vapors would be rising from the J-tube to the collection tube and some high % vapors would be rising out the overflow side to be condensed again.

With enough water going thru the condenser to knock down all the vapors to the J-tube, this still would act like it had a thumper after it. Actual because of the vapors rising from the overflow side and being condensed again, this could make it act like there is more than one thumper after the still.

This design has possibilities to produce higher % flavored product.

As far as safety goes, this still looks as safe as a pot still or any reflux still I have seen on site.

You should try your design. Please let us know how it works. Good Luck!

[dog1976]

This design will cause pot puke from the boil. You must use a thumper to get the second in one pass. It is a failed design at best, but hopefully will give direction and open the way for new thought.

Best to you.

WHAT THE HEXX DO YOU KNOW?
I think it is a good design to try. At least he is using his brain and trying something new and original. Some people would sooner use their mouth and be an AsX!

[Uncle Jesse]

Just because he's critical of the design doesn't mean he's against innovation, right? He even said it might open up new paths of design so keep at it. I think anyone who has read these forums for any length of time will understand that we're all for new ideas and experiments and we love to see the results.

[HookLine]

Interesting idea. Did you base it on the 'ponu.haisee' still design on the 'Photos of Reflux Stills' page on the parent site? (About 1/4 the way down the page.) It has an ingenious internal thumper design, in some ways quite similar to yours.

The vapour trap (J-section) at the bottom is the wild card. It is not at all clear how that is going behave when the still is up to temp.

For example, how does the vapour coming of the boiling liquid in the trap interact with the vapour coming down the column? The vapour trap might need to be lifted above the wash to prevent the liquid inside it boiling. But then you are losing valuable boiler space.

Also the diameter of the vapour trap tube (relative to the column), and the height of its outlet side, are probably critical.

If this basic design is going to work, you will probably have to redesign the vapour trap a lot more carefully. The rest of the design is basically okay, with two small alterations:

First, you will have to make sure that condensate running down the inside of the central column doesn't flow into the secondary condenser arm. A simple lip at the top of the T-piece should fix that.

Second, the vapour side arm (green arrow) will have some natural cooling and hence reflux, which could complicate things quite a bit, so insulate it well.


It will also be a real bitch to clean. And cost will be a lot higher than a standard column. Fittings are real expensive, and you have lots of extra ones, about seven or so.


Overall, even if it works, I can't see any real advantage over a simple double distilling, except maybe saving a bit of power. If I remember correctly, a lot of folk here think that double distilling is better than using a thumper anyhow.


Just my 2c worth.

[cannon.co.tn]

This design will cause pot puke from the boil.

That's a good point, you'll want to protect the end of the vapor trap from having mash that might enter if you get a vigorous boil.


EDIT: I was just thinking about this again. If your J-tube "vapor-lock" is immersed in your boil as you show it the temperature will be the same as the boil and it will almost immediately flash evaporate any ETOH that makes it past the rising vapor. I don't think this will leave anything in the "vapor-lock" at the end of your run. If there is nothing left in there you will not see any improvement in the output of your second condenser compared to the initial distillation.

[GingerBreadMan]

Interesting feedback, plenty of thoughts to consider.

Did you base it on the 'ponu.haisee' still design on the 'Photos of Reflux Stills' page on the parent site? (About 1/4 the way down the page.) It has an ingenious internal thumper design, in some ways quite similar to yours.

Yes, I believe that was the design that sparked my imagination. I thought it was a bit complicated with all the coils, and it seemed simpler to use two liebig condensers than to try to make one big condenser that cools both vapor paths.

---------------------------

I think the J tube would probably need to be charged before starting it. Also, I have enough room in my boiler to emerse the J tube in the mash or not. I was actually concerned there would not be enough heat transfer to do the second distill inside the J tube - sort of the exact opposite of some of the thinking here, that it would just boil off immediately.

Even though the J tube is in the boiling mash, I'm wondering how fast the distillate from the first distill would heat up. I was thinking it's like dropping an ice cube in a glass of water. Even though the water is warmer than the ice, it takes time to melt the ice cube, because the water is changing state from solid to liquid. Same thinking of distillate going from a liquid to a vapor - change of state. It's called Latent Heat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I don't quite understand the whole concept, but further reading on my part might grow a few brain cells in the nogen

This design will cause pot puke from the boil.

I hope not, I don't mind drinking my mistakes, but when you put it that way...

The vapor in the J-tube will split into two flows, in volume percent related to the size of the column and the intended escape path tube. The split flow is better explained in "The Compleat Distiller" under Vapor Management Head.

I'll have to get this book. It's on my birthday wish list I just gave to my wife. My best guess is to make the size of the opening of the J tube into the pot smaller than the opening that goes back up the column. But then again, science always surprises me and ends up being the exact opposite of I thought.

It will also be a real bitch to clean. And cost will be a lot higher than a standard column. Fittings are real expensive, and you have lots of extra ones, about seven or so.

For my pot still (12 quart stock pot) I'm using 3/4" and 1/2" copper right now. The idea was inspired by keeping costs down and using these size fittings rather than going up to 2" copper for a bokakob type mini-still.

[dog1976]

Interesting feedback, plenty of thoughts to

The vapor in the J-tube will split into two flows, in volume percent related to the size of the column and the intended escape path tube. The split flow is better explained in "The Compleat Distiller" under Vapor Management Head.

I'll have to get this book. It's on my birthday wish list I just gave to my wife. My best guess is to make the size of the opening of the J tube into the pot smaller than the opening that goes back up the column. But then again, science always surprises me and ends up being the exact opposite of I thought.






The column sizes should not have any effect on which column the vapors go up, the slope of the bottom pipe of the J-tube will determine this.
Because the vapors are submerged in the liquid they rise to the top wall of the horizontal pipe, if the horizontal pipe is sloped up towards the collection port then most of the vapors will go up this vertical, depending on the degree of slope.
The condensate coming down this tube will try and create a flow the other direction. You will have to determine how much slope you need to counteract this. You could try using a deep U shaped tube.

[Dog Meat]

This design will cause pot puke from the boil. You must use a thumper to get the second in one pass. It is a failed design at best, but hopefully will give direction and open the way for new thought.

Best to you.

WHAT THE HEXX DO YOU KNOW?
I think it is a good design to try. At least he is using his brain and trying something new and original. Some people would sooner use their mouth and be an AsX!

Well it would seem That was a little short and to the point. I don't much appreciate a neanderthal attack though when I gave my best wishes to this person, but remember when you are heating a mixture of several different substances they will act in various ways at various temps. The smaller container inside one much larger will provide easier adhesion to the sidewalls for the alchol to climb than the mash inside the boiler, and an easier path to boil up higher, and it always boils faster. try it yourself with a tube in a pot of boiling mash then filled with alcohol,and see how much faster that alchol filled tube boils up. First failure.

At any rate a capped and necked down larger pipe in the mash that can work as a second double boiled pot, will only create twice as much heat that is going to rise up and heat the condenser from both ends. Second failure.


For this to even come close to working the pipe would have to be Cut and a 45 degree plate put in to force the rising second distill to pass out the outlet pipe and a tiny missing portion to allow liebig condensate to fall down and into the thumper chamber.

Its going to now need a second condenser since its coming out as steam again. Third failure.


That's how to fix it whats wrong, but spoon feeding stifles creativity.

[Dog Meat]

Well then again what do I know?

I know no one here could help on my first build except jesse who steered me away from using parts that would degrade. I had to go find an expert, in the commercial arena to figure out the rest.

My first constant distiller machine ran 55 gals of mash in 9 hours, unattended, and then shut itself off leaving a hair under 10 gallons of fuel at 86% when it was done. The three barrel float system allows for 20 gallons of fuel per week, depending on what you decide to ferment. the leavings give nothing when reran so it all comes out. Everything fits in a minivan and can pretty much be considered a mobile gas station.

My second is almost complete based on the very same design, and I unloaded the carcass of the third to start on that. I have learned all the flaws of that design and will fire up my welder soon for a perfected design.

That's all I know I guess. Probably not much for a newbie.

[GingerBreadMan]

That's how to fix it whats wrong, but spoon feeding stifles creativity.

ROTFLAMO!

Thanks for expanding on what you meant by "pot puke", my creative mind was thinking you meant something different

Good luck on the third still. I'm on my third one too. Nothing as fancy as yours, but I'm really happy with it.

[dog1976]

try it yourself with a tube in a pot of boiling mash then filled with alcohol, and see how much faster that alchol filled tube boils up. First failure

Failure? I thought that is the purpose of the J-tube thumper/doubler




At any rate a capped and necked down larger pipe in the mash that can work as a second double boiled pot, will only create twice as much heat that is going to rise up and heat the condenser from both ends. Second failure.


The vapors rising up the collection side will never make it to the condenser; they will be pushed out thru the collection tube by gravity. Steam or vapors are heaver than air, they are pushed up.



For this to even come close to working the pipe would have to be Cut and a 45 degree plate put in to force the rising second distill to pass out the outlet pipe and a tiny missing portion to allow liebig condensate to fall down and into the thumper chamber.


Gravity again does this.




Its going to now need a second condenser since its coming out as steam again. Third failure.

Having 2 condensers, failure?

This design will cause pot puke from the boil. You must use a thumper to get the second in one pass. It is a failed design at best,

I don't much appreciate a neanderthal attack though when I gave my best wishes to this person



Have a nice day!

[rezaxis]

If I had the time and had the money I would build it, but here's the changes I would make to the design before I did.

I would put the diverter as mentioned earlier to make sure the primary condensed vapors didn't fall into the secondary condenser.

I would also take the output of the thumper trap that as drawn, is inside the boiler, up through the top of the boiler and attach it to the primary vapor path by replacing the elbow there with a T. This would eliminate any puke catching in the trap as mentioned before.

Thirdly, I would fill this "thumper trap" with water before I started the run. The level of water would be up to the bottom of the T in the primary vapor path.

With the changes mentioned above, I don't THINK anything would come out of this rig until enough primarily condensed vapor lowered the boiling point of the liquid in the trap to equal that of the boiling point of that in the pot. Then I THINK this trap would stabilize at some fixed boiling point lower than that which is in the pot based on heat applied, and may adjust itself constantly as the run progresses.

Also, I feel like this thumper trap should be big diameter pipe, and therefore the primary vapor pipe rising from the boiler should be sized to accommodate the pipe and the primary vapor.

Build it and let us know what happens!

[Dog Meat]

Unfortunately I wasted a bit of time with both of those books, and while they have good information, some of the theory never panned out. Its one of those things, where you can't speculate based on what other people think, or have written.

There is only one certain way and that is to do the build, keeping in mind you can cut and rework if a fault is found.

Basicly you will never know until you start risking a few carboys of wash. That was the first time I knew some of the books WERE wrong, or just speculative thought.

In Gbman's design, he is attempting a simple second distill with a double boiled thumper. Thumper design is based on using the steam to activate previous distill in a non heated chamber. What folks are trying to tell him is that it will run like that, but a Bok build is the best advice unless the thump is pulled out of the pot, or the vapor it much more tightly managed. Hope that makes sense. Think it through again, and decide where you want the vapor to go, what you want it to do, and how to control all aspects. You may require an expensive Variac to pull off the heat management and force things to go the way you want.

[DestructoMutt]

Hello DogMeat -

It appears to me that some of your posts seem to be dis-information.

It also appears to me, that you are not following the thread that you are posting to.

I say this, because I have trouble following how your posts relate to what has been written by others before you.

For example - in your most recent post, you mention two books - which books are you referring to? If you are referring to "THe Compleat Distiller" and "How to Make Corn Whiskey", how exactly did the theory not live up to your actual implementation?

Additionally, it appears to me that you may be talking about a different use of ethanol than most of the people here on this forum are. It appears to me that fuel ethanol production and the production of ethanol for consumption, while related and overlapping, have differences that conflict.

Again, this is just my perception of what I see. I could be wrong, and I could be missing something, but could you please, for my benefit, be a little less cryptic with your post. Please.

[GingerBreadMan]

I just finished 3 stripping runs with my current pot still. Here is what the still looks like:

I wrote down lots of data points while collecting the distillate. It would seem that even this simple still, with the tall column has quite a bit of reflux. I was quite surprised, since I don't have any packing in the column. (the column is 3/4" pipe about 16" long).

I thought a simple pot still would have no reflux and act basically as one plate, plus maybe 5-10%. Intial data would make me believe that my pot is currently doing 1.5 theorectical plates. I'll be doing a second distillation later this week - this time I'll record exact volume and ABV of the starting mash (the output of the first distill), so I can get an exact theorectical plate for this still*

Since what I really want is about a 2.0 - 2.2 theorectical plates for my still, it would seem that adding a bit of packing and a bit of reflux would be better than this thumper column. I like the thumper column idea and think it would work, but now, based on this new data, I'm thinking adding this thumper column would bring up the theoretical plate to 3.0 or above, which is more than I want.


* I hope I'm using the terminology theoretical plate correctly. Basically I want 2 distills to happen as described here -

http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/steps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[cannon.co.tn]

nevermind....

[DestructoMutt]

GingerBreadMan -

Your still looks nice. It's not a simple pot still though. You have a column on your pot still.

Add a scrubber and you may achieve your 2 theoretical plates.

Good work.

P.S. Sorry about my rant to DogMeat in your thread.

[GingerBreadMan]

It's not a simple pot still though. You have a column on your pot still.

Add a scrubber and you may achieve your 2 theoretical plates.

I have much to learn. I can't seem to stop thinking about how all this works. Even though I don't think I would build this thumper column, I almost just want to build it - just to learn even more. Winter is coming soon here, it just might be something I'll do to pass the time before spring

P.S. Sorry about my rant to DogMeat in your thread.

No worries, frankly speaking, I really didn't understand what DogMeat was talking about but was afraid to ask - he seemed to be really abrasive. I almost feel bad bringing up this topic, but then again it was a thought experiment and I hope it was enjoyable for all to read and discuss.