What is poisoning my washes?

fahdoul · Post by **fahdoul** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:32 am

I posted here a while back about a EC1118 sugar wash that just kept taking its own damn time, always some activity but never much, cleared after 6 weeks but still pretty sweet (that is to say, not all sugar used)>

Figured I'd do another wash using baking yeast just to see if it made a difference. This one absolutely bonked. Only slight bubbling the first few days, then nothing. Made nice healthy vigorous starteds, baking yeast twice and EC1118 once, they be all foamy and happy and I dump them in and a day later nothing.

So something is poisoning my wash!

Buckets were nice clean 6 gallon buckets orginally held de-icer salt.
Tried two yeast nutrient mixes, one which is ammonium phosphate and urea to start with (in half the recommended quantity, figuring I'd add the rest later on as I usually do), then tried some DAP, yeast hull and magnesium stuff touted as being good for stuck fermentations later on.
Name brand sugar from supermarket
A bit of molasses from the refrigerator, same stuff I have used in all my previous batches.
Well water, not chlorinated.
Wash kept at about 75º

So any ideas on why this batch is so deadly to yeast? All I can think of is maybe salt residue in the bucket, or maybe one of the nutrients is defective or adulterated.

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:43 am

What was your starting SG?If it was higher than 1080,It would cause osmotic stress to the yeast and would cause the slow,slow ferment from the 1118.I have done this in the past,and like you said,its bubbling but the bubbles are real fine,and the Sg drops very slowly.
wineo

dog Meat · Post by **dog Meat** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:25 am

De- Icing salt is not rock salt. It contains toxic salts that are probably in the scratches and pores of the vessel. Those buckets should not be re used.

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:53 pm

dog Meat wrote:De- Icing salt is not rock salt. It contains toxic salts that are probably in the scratches and pores of the vessel. Those buckets should not be re used.

I dont believe it, first, if I understand what that salt is, it is not toxic, and second, if you clean and rinse it properly, you'll only have some ppm left in your wash, wich would be a problem if it were bacteria that can multiply, but salts cant ...

DestructoMutt · Post by **DestructoMutt** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:35 pm

Depends on if it was De-Icing Salt (NaCl?) or one of the new chemical de-icers that are available.

True, pure salt - not a problem.

Chemical de-icer - what in the world are you thinking, to be using something like that????

jake · Post by **jake** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:49 pm

I will also ask how much sugar?
I've got 3gal of wort going real slow starting gravity of1.15(20%)
shot oxygen for 5min then pitched over a quart of 1118.
I new better than to start so high; but I had the yeast and the O2
though what the hell. the malt was free.might as well try.

fahdoul · Post by **fahdoul** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:27 pm

I was aiming for 10 or so%. Last really slow EC1118 batch I was aiming much higher, which probably was part of the problem, which is why I was trying to do a simple, foolproof wash this time.

Buckets are labeled as containing Pure Calcium Chloride, and were thoroughly washed and soaked.

I've had lots of stuck fermentations, but never one that couldn't be brought back to life with a bit more yeast or nutrient and had to be dumped. The way this one seems to be toxic is very odd.

AfricaUnite · Post by **AfricaUnite** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:06 pm

Stop using Urea, in winemaking we do not use it anymore as it was found to create Ethyl Carbamate which is pretty nasty stuff for your wine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_carbamate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

dog meat · Post by **dog meat** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:48 pm

iTS THE BUCKETS!

cAPLOCK STUCK. SORRY.

dog meat · Post by **dog meat** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:53 pm

stoker wrote:
dog Meat wrote:De- Icing salt is not rock salt. It contains toxic salts that are probably in the scratches and pores of the vessel. Those buckets should not be re used.
I dont believe it, first, if I understand what that salt is, it is not toxic, and second, if you clean and rinse it properly, you'll only have some ppm left in your wash, wich would be a problem if it were bacteria that can multiply, but salts cant ...

bELIEVE IT. iT IS 100% OF THE REQUIREMENT TO LABEL BUT NOT THE CONTENT WHICH IS A SMALL PERCENT OF TRULY NASTY STUFF THAT CAN GET THOUGH FOR ICING STEPS AND DRIVEWAYS. NEVER USE A CONTAINER THAT HAS NOT HELD FOOD OR MET THE STANDARD FOR FOOD.

dAMN CAPLOCK STUCK AGAIN. sORRY.

dixiedrifter · Post by **dixiedrifter** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:45 am

My guess is that its something wrong with the yeast, or its not getting enough nutrients.

Calcium chloride is extremely water soluble... one good rinse should have removed all of it.

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:44 am

1. did you aerate your wort thoroughly?
2. what's the starting gravity of the wash?
3. did you check pH?

fahdoul · Post by **fahdoul** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:07 am

Initial SG was about 80 according to my hygro. I aerated it well, as I alway do, both when making up the batch, and for the first few days after pitching.

I didn't measure pH though I will have to admit. I tend to assume if I use the same, standard, recipes pH will be OK, but that may be a mistake.

I can't see that nutrients could have that much to do. They nutrients I used may not have been perfect, but they were good enough that I would not expect such a total die off so quickly into the ferment.

Yeast is probably not the problem either - I tried two kinds, on four occasions, and the starters were vigorous and normal when I pitched them.

The salt seems the obvious culprit, by process of elimination, but also unlikely - salt dissolves quickly and thoroughly, the buckets were clean and new and well soaked.

I'd be sorry if it is the salt. The Sams Club di-icer comes in nice 6 gallon buckets with heavy lids, and clean 6 gallon buckets are hard to come by.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:51 am

and clean 6 gallon buckets are hard to come by.

good fermenters are pretty easy to make and offer many advantages over used plastic buckets. wouldn't cost much more than a bucket of salt...

I doubt its the salt, but I'd get a stainless fermenter and eliminate that question... sugar washes require a certain amount of precision. gotta measure everything accurately and follow the procedures to the letter.

how did you make the starter? its possible that you stressed the yeast?

DestructoMutt · Post by **DestructoMutt** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:27 pm

Junkyard Dawg is asking a good question - how do you make your yeast starter?

Supposedly, the best way to make a yeast starter is to use a diluted version of your wash, or a diluted sample of your actual wash. This way, they adapt more quickly to their future environment.

If you just rehydrate them in water, you will stress them out when dumping them into the wash, maybe even kill some/most/all of them off.

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:02 pm

I make mine by first hydrating the yeast in 1/2 cup warm water for 15min.
Then I add it to a warm starter,with some of whatever im fermenting,and enough sugar or juice to get 1040SG.No energizer,or dap.I will put it in the wash when I start it.I like to let these work for 24-48hrs before using,and I usually make a 1/2 gallon.Thats how I do it.It works for me.
wineo

Rummeriffic · Post by **Rummeriffic** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:35 pm

Nothin for nothin, but last week I was making up 10 gal. of a molasses and white sugar wash. I used 4 packets of EC1118. I only have 5 gallon carboys so I have to split the wash in half. I make up the wash in a kettle on the stove to 4 gal total volume including the molasses and sugar, cool it and then put 2 gal in each carboy and dilute with filtered water.
So, now I have 2 carboys with identical wash in them. I rehydrated the yeast seperately, 2 packets each time in 1/2 cup warm water and then into a starter of the wash diluted to 50% with water. The 1st started was foaming and frothing like Mad after about an hour, and the second was doing almost nothing. It was active, but nothing like the 1st one I made. After 4 hours in the starter(s) it was the same story. Not sure why it happened, or even exactly What happened. I purchased they yeast from a local brew shop at the same time (10 packets total) and they were all treated the same.
I pitched each starter into the carboys and the slow starter has remained slow. It's fermenting, but at about 1/2 the rate of the one that started aggressively. I'm guessing that I just got a couple packets with fewer viable cells in them. I think I'm going to do this a few more times to see if I get the same results just to satisfy my curiosity.

DestructoMutt · Post by **DestructoMutt** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:52 pm

If you poured half of the wash into the first carboy and then the remainder into the second carboy, you didn't actually achieve parity between the carboys. The first carboy has the best half of the wash, while the second has all of the sediment (nonfermentable sugars). When you cooled your wash, the heavy fractions/things settled out.

To avoid this in the future, pour 1/4 of the wash into the first carboy, 1/2 into the second and then the last 1/4 into the first, all while continuously stirring.

Rummeriffic · Post by **Rummeriffic** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:41 pm

DestrutoMutt wrote:If you poured half of the wash into the first carboy and then the remainder into the second carboy, you didn't actually achieve parity between the carboys. The first carboy has the best half of the wash, while the second has all of the sediment (nonfermentable sugars). When you cooled your wash, the heavy fractions/things settled out.

To avoid this in the future, pour 1/4 of the wash into the first carboy, 1/2 into the second and then the last 1/4 into the first, all while continuously stirring.

That's a good point DestrutoMutt, although I do try and keep everything stirred up pretty well....After boiling the sugars I move the pot into the sink and cool it with a cold tap water bath and ice. I keep stirring the mash and the bath water to get it cool as quickly as possible. as soon as it's below 80*F I pour it into the carboys 1/2 and 1/2.
What seemed odd though was the difference of performance even in the starter(s). For the 2 starters I used 1 quart of the mash, diluted it with 1 quart of water and then put it in 2 jars and added the rehydrated yeast. Even then(before pitching) there was a huge difference in the activity from one starter to the next.