I soured 3.5 lbs. corn for my UJSM, with the idea coming from this post. After 4 or 5 days and before adding it to the wash, I heated it to 160F and held it there for 30 minutes just to pasturize it. It kept the sourness doing it that way. We'll see how it turns out when the wash finishes and I run it. Hopefully, all will be good.
Oh yeah, that 3.5 lbs. soured corn was combined with the 3.5 lbs cracked corn in the wash.
Sour Corn UJSM
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pintoshine
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new_moonshiner
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alice
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I've always been leery of things that seem to be too simple, so after reading this thread for the fifth time I'm going to act like a total dumbarse (not that big a stretch really:)) and ask:
Is it really going to be that easy? Will I be able to cut out the first three or four generations of UJSM ferments/runs simply by souring the corn in some water for a coupla days before I ferment?
It just sounds to easy for a beginner, like the mythical free lunch....
Is it really going to be that easy? Will I be able to cut out the first three or four generations of UJSM ferments/runs simply by souring the corn in some water for a coupla days before I ferment?
It just sounds to easy for a beginner, like the mythical free lunch....
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new_moonshiner
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Its bound to speed things up some starting out with a sour mash on the first ferment,and may give a better,or different flavor to the finished product.I plan on trying it with 4-5 pounds of corn,and a little 88%lactic acid.Im going to add it to 15-20 pounds of mixed, mashed grains for whiskey.It will be 2 row,wheat malt,flaked rye,flaked wheat,flaked barley,and a few pounds of munich,and vienna malt that I have from by beermaking.Im going to add the sour corn to the mash,and leave it overnight,starting at 152f.The next morning I will add water,check the sg,and add enough sugar to get a 8-10% ferment.I will reuse the same grains with backset for 2-3 generations,adding sugar each time.Im going to use a 20 gallon fermenter so I should be able to have 12-13gallons of mash to run each time in my keg.It should be some real good whiskey.
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RadicalEd1
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Hehe, I'm kinda with you on this one, alice; just seems way too easy.
So then, correct me if I am wrong, but in a sour mash we want the corn to get infected by lacto, which will sour it up quite a bit. In following batches the backset, which remains highly acidic, keeps the mash sour, and there is not necessary additional bacterial fermentation.
As a beer brewer, if just seems like the antithesis of all those good sanitation procedures I learned
. But I suppose it isn't that different from a sour beer, either.
So then, correct me if I am wrong, but in a sour mash we want the corn to get infected by lacto, which will sour it up quite a bit. In following batches the backset, which remains highly acidic, keeps the mash sour, and there is not necessary additional bacterial fermentation.
As a beer brewer, if just seems like the antithesis of all those good sanitation procedures I learned
. But I suppose it isn't that different from a sour beer, either.After reading Anthony Boucherie's "The art of making whiskey" again last night I found this:
Were I obliged to make use of a ferment of the first class, I would choose the glutinous part of wheat flour. This vegeto-animal substance is formed in the following manner:--A certain quantity of flour is made into a solid dough, with a little water. It is then taken into the hands, and water slowly poured over it, while it is kneaded again. The water runs white, because it carries off the starchy part of the flour; it runs clear after it is washed sufficiently. There remains in the hands of the operator a dough, compact, solid, elastic, and reduced to nearly the half of the flour employed. This dough, a little diluted with water, and kept in the temperature indicated for the room of fermentation, passes to the putrid state, and contracts the smell of spoiled meat. Four pounds of this dough per hogshead, seem to me to be sufficient to establish a good fermentation. A small quantity of good vinegar would answer the same purpose, and is a ferment of the second class.
It would seem to me that this is how he got is lacto ferment going. Does that sound right to you. Very cutting edge for the early 1800's...Pugi
Were I obliged to make use of a ferment of the first class, I would choose the glutinous part of wheat flour. This vegeto-animal substance is formed in the following manner:--A certain quantity of flour is made into a solid dough, with a little water. It is then taken into the hands, and water slowly poured over it, while it is kneaded again. The water runs white, because it carries off the starchy part of the flour; it runs clear after it is washed sufficiently. There remains in the hands of the operator a dough, compact, solid, elastic, and reduced to nearly the half of the flour employed. This dough, a little diluted with water, and kept in the temperature indicated for the room of fermentation, passes to the putrid state, and contracts the smell of spoiled meat. Four pounds of this dough per hogshead, seem to me to be sufficient to establish a good fermentation. A small quantity of good vinegar would answer the same purpose, and is a ferment of the second class.
It would seem to me that this is how he got is lacto ferment going. Does that sound right to you. Very cutting edge for the early 1800's...Pugi
SHINE on you crazy diamond !!!
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pintoshine
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pintoshine
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The verdict is in!
Ok, I got it run. It is real good. It tastes very much like commercial white dog from the initial ferment and run. It does have one notable difference. Raw corn flavor, is distinctly different than cooked corn. It is comparable to the flavor obtained from chewing on a raw corn kernel compared to chewing on a corn chip. The difference is surprising. This is my first encounter with raw corn in a spirit.
But let me say, the lacto part of the fermentation came through just as expected. It has the creamy, full mouth feel that is warming. For as little work as this was, it is very nice and very full flavored without being harsh in any way. I find that the lacto fermentation added the same to the UJSM that I have come to expect from real mashed corn made with sour corn.
When I made my first batch of double fermented sour mash corn, I found the missing flavor I had been looking for since I was a child and my uncle Leo died.
So the verdict is... For the UJSM style spirit, the sour corn will add an additional level of complexity, in a single fermentation without backset, that is a suitable spirit for drinking and aging. I am going to have to do a plain UJSM for comparison. My next experiment is going to be adding cornflakes breakfast cereal to try to add a cooked corn flavor. Jameson Beam has recommended it several times.
But let me say, the lacto part of the fermentation came through just as expected. It has the creamy, full mouth feel that is warming. For as little work as this was, it is very nice and very full flavored without being harsh in any way. I find that the lacto fermentation added the same to the UJSM that I have come to expect from real mashed corn made with sour corn.
When I made my first batch of double fermented sour mash corn, I found the missing flavor I had been looking for since I was a child and my uncle Leo died.
So the verdict is... For the UJSM style spirit, the sour corn will add an additional level of complexity, in a single fermentation without backset, that is a suitable spirit for drinking and aging. I am going to have to do a plain UJSM for comparison. My next experiment is going to be adding cornflakes breakfast cereal to try to add a cooked corn flavor. Jameson Beam has recommended it several times.
As usual,Your commitment to the craft has opened a new path for us to follow!
I plan on adding 5 pounds of sour corn with my mixed grain bill,after the grains are mashed,and incorperate that flavor with malts,rye and wheat to try and make some great whiskey.I was planning on adding some 88% lactic to the corn,and just let it sit,to see if it will work off.
As always,I will have some with your name on it.
I plan on adding 5 pounds of sour corn with my mixed grain bill,after the grains are mashed,and incorperate that flavor with malts,rye and wheat to try and make some great whiskey.I was planning on adding some 88% lactic to the corn,and just let it sit,to see if it will work off.
As always,I will have some with your name on it.
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punkin
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alice wrote:Got a link to that malt, dunder? I can't find it anywhere...Dnderhead wrote:all you have to do is add pugidogs malt and you
have my old recipe
Sure you can...
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5731
YouJustForgotAboutItPunkin
FYI: lactobacillus is added to corn silage as an inoculate to prevent nastier bugs from taking over.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/Lbuchneri.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Cooked 16lbs cracked corn/5 gals water at 150F for 30 min, tossed into the fermenter and added 3lbs light lager dried malt extract. The cooking corn was pretty thick, hard to stir.
Topped with a gallon of cold water, and pitched yeast (RedStar Premier Cuvee) when the temp dropped below 90F.
I still got a lacto ferment; sour, nice corn taste; planning on testing pH tomorrow. (Been about a week so far.) I guess the lactobacillus managed to survive; maybe because stirring during cooking wasn't efficient so there were pockets of cooler material? I dunno.
Tomorrow I'm gonna split this into 2 fermenters and top each one with 3 gal water/6 lbs lager extract, let it ferment a week or two and run it.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/Lbuchneri.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Cooked 16lbs cracked corn/5 gals water at 150F for 30 min, tossed into the fermenter and added 3lbs light lager dried malt extract. The cooking corn was pretty thick, hard to stir.
Topped with a gallon of cold water, and pitched yeast (RedStar Premier Cuvee) when the temp dropped below 90F.
I still got a lacto ferment; sour, nice corn taste; planning on testing pH tomorrow. (Been about a week so far.) I guess the lactobacillus managed to survive; maybe because stirring during cooking wasn't efficient so there were pockets of cooler material? I dunno.
Tomorrow I'm gonna split this into 2 fermenters and top each one with 3 gal water/6 lbs lager extract, let it ferment a week or two and run it.
Thx; I also ran across some info on lactobacillus acidophilus (based on research from the livestock industry):
http://tinyurl.com/2mkwmh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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In in vitro experiments Lactobacillus acidophilus L23 has been shown to have relatively high amylase activity by hydrolyzing large amounts of corn starch
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http://tinyurl.com/2jcd23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Three strains (A-4, L9 and L23) were selected for further study based on their high amylolytic activity in a broth containing soluble starch as the only carbohydrate source.
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http://tinyurl.com/2mkwmh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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In in vitro experiments Lactobacillus acidophilus L23 has been shown to have relatively high amylase activity by hydrolyzing large amounts of corn starch
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http://tinyurl.com/2jcd23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Three strains (A-4, L9 and L23) were selected for further study based on their high amylolytic activity in a broth containing soluble starch as the only carbohydrate source.
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So I guess I'll just run down to the local 'lactobacillus acidophilus L23' shop and pick up a couple packets.
I was curious about the competition between the lactobacillus vs the saccharomyces and found this abstract on lacto/yeast combinations and final ethanol production:
http://tinyurl.com/2kb6eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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When up to 10(9) CFU of bacteria/ml was present in mash, approximately 3.8 to 7.6% reductions in ethanol concentration occurred depending on the strain. Production of lactic acid and a suspected competition with yeast cells for essential growth factors in the fermenting medium were the major reasons for reductions in yeast growth and final ethanol yield when lactic acid bacteria were present.
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looks like you can get the full paper here (this link is found at the bottom of the page if you follow the link above):
http://tinyurl.com/37tjdc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
####################################
This also looked cool:
http://tinyurl.com/38w4u6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Evolution of the Lactic Acid Bacterial Community during Malt Whisky Fermentation: a Polyphasic Study
The development of the lactic acid bacterial community in a commercial malt whisky fermentation occurred in three broad phases.
Initially, bacteria were inhibited by strong yeast growth. Fluorescence microscopy and environmental scanning electron microscopy revealed, in this early stage, both cocci and rods that were at least partly derived from the wort and yeast but also stemmed from the distillery plant. Denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) of partial 16S rRNA genes and sequence analysis revealed cocci related to Streptococcus thermophilus or Saccharococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus brevis, and Lactobacillus fermentum.
The middle phase began 35 to 40 h after yeast inoculation and was characterized by exponential growth of lactobacilli and residual yeast metabolism. Lactobacillus casei or Lactobacillus paracasei, L. fermentum, and Lactobacillus ferintoshensis were detected in samples of fermenting wort examined by DGGE during this stage. Bacterial growth was accompanied by the accumulation of acetic and lactic acids and the metabolism of residual maltooligosaccharides.
By 70 h, two new PCR bands were detected on DGGE gels, and the associated bacteria were largely responsible for the final phase of the fermentation. The bacteria were phylogenetically related to Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii, and strains similar to the former had previously been recovered from malt whisky fermentations in Japan. These were probably obligately homofermentative bacteria, required malt wort for growth, and could not be cultured on normal laboratory media, such as MRS.
Their metabolism during the last 20 to 30 h of fermentation was associated with yeast death and autolysis and further accumulation of lactate but no additional acetate.
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I was curious about the competition between the lactobacillus vs the saccharomyces and found this abstract on lacto/yeast combinations and final ethanol production:
http://tinyurl.com/2kb6eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
---
When up to 10(9) CFU of bacteria/ml was present in mash, approximately 3.8 to 7.6% reductions in ethanol concentration occurred depending on the strain. Production of lactic acid and a suspected competition with yeast cells for essential growth factors in the fermenting medium were the major reasons for reductions in yeast growth and final ethanol yield when lactic acid bacteria were present.
---
looks like you can get the full paper here (this link is found at the bottom of the page if you follow the link above):
http://tinyurl.com/37tjdc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
####################################
This also looked cool:
http://tinyurl.com/38w4u6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
---
Evolution of the Lactic Acid Bacterial Community during Malt Whisky Fermentation: a Polyphasic Study
The development of the lactic acid bacterial community in a commercial malt whisky fermentation occurred in three broad phases.
Initially, bacteria were inhibited by strong yeast growth. Fluorescence microscopy and environmental scanning electron microscopy revealed, in this early stage, both cocci and rods that were at least partly derived from the wort and yeast but also stemmed from the distillery plant. Denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) of partial 16S rRNA genes and sequence analysis revealed cocci related to Streptococcus thermophilus or Saccharococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus brevis, and Lactobacillus fermentum.
The middle phase began 35 to 40 h after yeast inoculation and was characterized by exponential growth of lactobacilli and residual yeast metabolism. Lactobacillus casei or Lactobacillus paracasei, L. fermentum, and Lactobacillus ferintoshensis were detected in samples of fermenting wort examined by DGGE during this stage. Bacterial growth was accompanied by the accumulation of acetic and lactic acids and the metabolism of residual maltooligosaccharides.
By 70 h, two new PCR bands were detected on DGGE gels, and the associated bacteria were largely responsible for the final phase of the fermentation. The bacteria were phylogenetically related to Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii, and strains similar to the former had previously been recovered from malt whisky fermentations in Japan. These were probably obligately homofermentative bacteria, required malt wort for growth, and could not be cultured on normal laboratory media, such as MRS.
Their metabolism during the last 20 to 30 h of fermentation was associated with yeast death and autolysis and further accumulation of lactate but no additional acetate.
---
From the previous article on lacto/whiskey, it sounds like you might want to do a sweet fermentation first, and when it finishes, toss in some lactobacillus-inoculated corn to allow the lacto to mop up any nutrients that the yeast ignored as well as consuming any dead yeast cells.
That allows you to maximize ethanol yield while still getting some lacto goodness in the final product.
Doing lacto first would give you an 'ultra-sour' product, but at the expense of ethanol yield.
http://tinyurl.com/38w4u6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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In well-operated distilleries, however, the lactobacilli flourish after the yeast cells have reached stationary phase and grow on residual nutrients and autolysing yeast cells. This “late lactic fermentation” is encouraged by many distillers, since it is thought to have a beneficial effect on the flavor of the final spirit (13, 24).
---
That allows you to maximize ethanol yield while still getting some lacto goodness in the final product.
Doing lacto first would give you an 'ultra-sour' product, but at the expense of ethanol yield.
http://tinyurl.com/38w4u6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
---
In well-operated distilleries, however, the lactobacilli flourish after the yeast cells have reached stationary phase and grow on residual nutrients and autolysing yeast cells. This “late lactic fermentation” is encouraged by many distillers, since it is thought to have a beneficial effect on the flavor of the final spirit (13, 24).
---
I've read and re-read this thread something like 20 times, and I cannot figure one thing out:
If I make a starter for the lactic ferment (i.e. 1/4 of the grain) and add it to the rest, does it need to finish souring BEFORE the yeast is pitched, or can everything be done at once? I.e. can the lactic ferment and the yeast ferment work simultaneously?
Aidas
If I make a starter for the lactic ferment (i.e. 1/4 of the grain) and add it to the rest, does it need to finish souring BEFORE the yeast is pitched, or can everything be done at once? I.e. can the lactic ferment and the yeast ferment work simultaneously?
Aidas
Nisi te iuvat cibus, plus bibe vini!
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pintoshine
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My process was to:
1: create starter in multiple jars hoping one would turn out good.
2: mix together starter, additional corn, sugar water and yeast.(all at once)
3: wait for it to finish.
I know it seems too simple but that's all. I found it to be a slow fermenter at 68F but it turned out real nice.
1: create starter in multiple jars hoping one would turn out good.
2: mix together starter, additional corn, sugar water and yeast.(all at once)
3: wait for it to finish.
I know it seems too simple but that's all. I found it to be a slow fermenter at 68F but it turned out real nice.
I guess Im going to find out for sure because i did a mash last night.Mixed grains,23pounds of them.I added my sour corn/rye starter this morning{5 lbs of corn,1 lb of rye} that I started last week with neutrents and 88% lactic acid.It was working like mad,and smelled right so Im hoping the lacto will take off in the malt.I pinched a 1/2 gallon starter of W.D.yeast with ag with dried malt in it.This is my 1st try at the sour lacto,but I think it will be my best whiskey yet.Its big! Its in a 20 gallon fermenter,and has 28 pounds of grains in it.Im going to do 2 runs off the same grains,with backset on the 2nd ferment.If it works,and I get the flavor Im looking for,I will probably start doing all my grain ferments this way.Thanks Pint.
I guess it's just too simple to grasp right away.pintoshine wrote:My process was to:
1: create starter in multiple jars hoping one would turn out good.
2: mix together starter, additional corn, sugar water and yeast.(all at once)
3: wait for it to finish.
I know it seems too simple but that's all. I found it to be a slow fermenter at 68F but it turned out real nice.
Well, I'm going to find out tomorrow, as my rye starter and corn starter (seperate) are just about done... I'm going to use the rye for a rye/oat/barley mash and the corn for a bourbon.
Thanks much!
Aidas
Nisi te iuvat cibus, plus bibe vini!
Talk about long ferments...
Anyway, this stuff acts different than anythign else I've made.
The rye actually puked on me! I've NEVER had anything boil over yet... so I was suprised as hell when this foamed up so much that it actually popped the onion off the boiler.
I didn't really notice any difference in flavor, but I'm nursing a cold, so maybe the nose is just to desensitized to feel any difference in the white dog... we'll see after I get better and the whiskey ages on hungarian oak bullets (M+).
I used about 33% backset for the next batch of rye and for the next batch of corn. Sloooooooooooooooooooooooow to start, let me tell you.
At first I though maybe something has gone wrong (the corn was first to be run, and thus, first to be re-started). To this day, it's barely moving along. The rye is the same. A barley UJSM that was run SUBSEQUENT to the lactic UJSMs and restarted thereafter, is fermenting away happily with no problems.
Because both of the lactics are having incredibly slow ferment starts, I assume that this is something to do with the lactic bacteria. We'll see if it continues to inhibit a normal ferment, and how long this is going to take...
Aidas
Anyway, this stuff acts different than anythign else I've made.
The rye actually puked on me! I've NEVER had anything boil over yet... so I was suprised as hell when this foamed up so much that it actually popped the onion off the boiler.
I didn't really notice any difference in flavor, but I'm nursing a cold, so maybe the nose is just to desensitized to feel any difference in the white dog... we'll see after I get better and the whiskey ages on hungarian oak bullets (M+).
I used about 33% backset for the next batch of rye and for the next batch of corn. Sloooooooooooooooooooooooow to start, let me tell you.
At first I though maybe something has gone wrong (the corn was first to be run, and thus, first to be re-started). To this day, it's barely moving along. The rye is the same. A barley UJSM that was run SUBSEQUENT to the lactic UJSMs and restarted thereafter, is fermenting away happily with no problems.
Because both of the lactics are having incredibly slow ferment starts, I assume that this is something to do with the lactic bacteria. We'll see if it continues to inhibit a normal ferment, and how long this is going to take...
Aidas
Nisi te iuvat cibus, plus bibe vini!
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Uncle Jesse
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hmm
you mean you malted your own rye or was it rye you added to a corn mash?
Rye has never been a particularly impressive ferment for me.
Rye has never been a particularly impressive ferment for me.
If only the best birds sang, the woods would be silent.
Actually, I did 2 UJSM style washes. 1) Soured corn and 2) soured rye with barley and oats. Essentially, I made soured starters 1) corn and 2) rye, that I added to other grain, water and sugar washes.
The third experiment was a pure malted rye mash (on the grain) to which I added some of the rye oat barley wash for the yeast and lactic bacteria. It fermented slowly, but surely. BTW the malted rye was not my malting, but purchased.
Now I've run nos. 1 and 3, and added 5 liters backset and 3 kg. of sugar with 10 liters of fresh water to the grain from the previous washes. As I mentioned, they're fermenting, but at a snail's pace.
Rye has served me well. I've been happy with the ferments and especially with the results. Pure rye just might be my favorite.
Aidas
The third experiment was a pure malted rye mash (on the grain) to which I added some of the rye oat barley wash for the yeast and lactic bacteria. It fermented slowly, but surely. BTW the malted rye was not my malting, but purchased.
Now I've run nos. 1 and 3, and added 5 liters backset and 3 kg. of sugar with 10 liters of fresh water to the grain from the previous washes. As I mentioned, they're fermenting, but at a snail's pace.
Rye has served me well. I've been happy with the ferments and especially with the results. Pure rye just might be my favorite.
Aidas
Nisi te iuvat cibus, plus bibe vini!