Sour Corn UJSM

[trthskr4]

I plan on starting my first batch of consumables soon, only used BW sugar for clean out and training. Should I stick to the original UJSM at first to get the "hang" of grain recipes? I think I completely understand the process outlined here, but I want to do what is best and learn as much as possible. Don't mind crawling 'fore walking.

[CoopsOz]

Yeah, just stick to the original.....it is tried and true. UJSM is just a sugar wash with corn for flavour.

[erbachem]

There is a delicacy (read acquired taste and smell) in NZ Kanga Pirau. Literally translated as rotten corn.

The traditional method was to fill flour sacks with corn kernels and then place them in a river for two to three months to ensure a constant flow of fresh water. Alternatively, people place the sacks into barrels and change the water daily. Once cooked, the result was something that various relatives assure me tastes like custard. I can tell you that it smells very much like rotten corn.

I had wondered what rotten corn would be like as a starting point for a sour mash. It seems very similar to what Pint has done here.

[Dnderhead]

never heard of that Iv placed in branch to soak so it would sprout

[brewzz]

So,all said,Can I then just take like 16 lbs. of cracked corn and water,let it set for a couple days to sour and then add sugar and yeast and more water,and let it sit in a fermenter until done?And Not have to cook or mash anything at all?Or will it go bad before the yeast gets a chance to work?I have on hand 16lbs of cracked corn,how much sugar and water?Should I heat the water first to dissolve the sugar?
Also,will this stuff siphon off cleaner than a cooked corn mash,and leave most of the floaties behind?

[punkin]

So,all said,Can I then just take like 16 lbs. of cracked corn,water,sugar and yeast,and let it sit in a fermenter until done?And Not have to cook or mash anything at all?I have on hand 16lbs of cracked corn,how much sugar and water?Should I heat the water first to dissolve the sugar?
Also,will this stuff siphon off cleaner than a cooked corn mash,and leave most of the floaties behind?

Suggest you peruse the thread in the Tried and True section called 'Uncle Jessies Simple Sour Mash' all answers to your questions are contained within it's 27 odd pages.

[brewzz]

Yeah,Punkin,thanks.I've been reading that thread today.I was just looking at getting the sour mash thing on the first fermentation.I now have the sugar and water amounts.Was just wondering if I could put about half the corn in a clean fermenter with water and then add the rest after it sours some.Or is it likely it would get badly infected and I would have to dump it?I have never tried to let anything sour on purpose.

[Hawke]

To get the sour in UJSM, you need the backset from the first 'sweet' run. No other way to do it right.

[trthskr4]

If you do it like that Brewzz you'll risk an infection, you really need the backset added to get the PH down.

[punkin]

If you just strip your runs and add the strips together for a slow spirit run, you'll never notice that the first strip is not as sour as the rest.

Put 4 spirit runs together in a 50 litre drum and you'll wonder what you were worrying about.

[muckanic]

Making up a lactobacillus starter is well worth the trouble, as things should sour fast enough to reduce infection problems without reliance on backset. I have found the most reliable source for this bacteria is raw wheat or rye berries. The more the grain has been processed (including malting), the less the bacteria count seems to be. All it takes is some grain and, optionally, an additional sugar source, and hold the mash @ 40C in a thermos flask, occasionally letting any CO2 out. If it hasn't soured successfully in 2 days, then regard it as a failed experiment. The mash should ideally develop a mainly pleasant yoghurt aroma, but with sulphury undertones being OK. Medicinal, phenolic overtones are not OK. There will almost always be some wild S. Diastaticus yeast present, which is bad news for beer because it eats up all the dextrins which provide body. This is not such a problem when stilling (especially when employing a dirty sour mashing technique anyway) although enthusiasts could streak the starter out in order to separate yeast from bacteria. Some brewers will recommend hopping the starter in order to inhibit the unwanted microbes, but I have found that many lactobacilli strains don't like hops too much either. A tolerant strain is a good thing to find and keep.

[Dnderhead]

if you want lacto. just use Yogurt( the water), butter milk (the water off), or sauerkraut ( the water )as a starter and you will have a good "mild" strain

[muckanic]

Yoghurt lacto strains have been selected to ferment lactose (aka milk sugar).

[Dnderhead]

Lactobacillus is a genus of Gram-positive facilitative anaerobic or microaerophilic bacteria[1]. They are a major part of the lactic acid bacteria group, named as such because most of its members convert lactose and other sugars to lactic acid. They are common goes on to say that there's
"bad" ones out there as well---- your choose do you want to take a chance ?

[brewzz]

Well,I started 4 quart jars of sour corn yesterday,just like Pint's pics at the beginning of this thread.I have a 15 gal S.S. keg that I cut the top out of a year or so ago.I haven't used it for anything yet and it is pristine,no dents or scratches inside.I cleaned it out really well and am planning to use it as my fermenter for this experiment.I am going to make a 10ish gal. batch of UJSM with the sour corn added if it turns out alright.I have some Prestige WD yeast to use for this.So Im thinking,16 lbs of cracked corn along with the sour starters,16 lbs of sugar and 11-12 gal. water and add the yeast.Does this sound about right?I will then repeat the process 4-5 times.So,do I need to add any nutrients in the successive batches,or just keep replacing spent corn,water and sugar along, with backset?
Thanks Guys,hope this works well....

[StabbyJoe]

each wash you make is exactly the same... except you replace 25% of the WATER with the backset.

[Loki440]

Not for being someone who tippy toes into things, but instead likes starting with a challenge i decided from the get go start with a souring corn method over the ujsm method for my first try at wiskey, as really worst think that could happen is it goes wrong and i jsut have to do a high purity netural spirit run if it went bad, or just loose a couple dollars worth of ingredients.

Well doing the distilling run right now and i can say it smells like wiskey, it tastes like wiskey, so i think it worked , but i know with ageing and toasted oak it will develop alot more flavor and body, right now it has that flavor and kick (apart from you typical alcohol kick) i associate with wiskeys, but none of the further spicey sweeter smells and tastes that typically come from various levels of charred oak, but it does have a light-medium corn flavor.


But what i did was follow the same steps as pintoshine, but when i noticed that they all started going i dumped all the quart jars (except one, just so i can use it as a tiem scale for the bucket) but i dumped them all into my fermentation bucket that is now dedicated to wiskey. And it went through those definte 3 stages of bacteria formation, as at first it smelled decent, then went to that rancid awful smell, then progress back to that silo sour smell after 4-6 days, then i let it sit a couple days (forgot about it ), also i broke my normal hydrometer awhile back so i just have been going by taste and letting my washes settle a couple extra extra days after it stops bubbling, i but tasted the wash today and it definitely had a nice sour taste to it with some corn flavor.

So its currently running through my hybrid column and is coming off at 65% and working its way down slowly.

So now i just have to bring in some white oak to char (can only get red oak around here) and give charring an attempt.

Anyways i will probably run a normal UJSM method, to see how it compares so i have a baseline to go off of.

but currently im very happy with the results.

[brewzz]

So,I'm doing my experiment also.My sour starters have been sitting for a week now.They all smell the same,kinda funky like old gym socks,but not too bad.I plan on putting around 11 gal. of water with the sour starters,16 lbs. of cracked corn,read chicken feed,along with 16lbs. of sugar.I will add 2 pks. of Presitge WD yeast to this in a clean S.S.keg I have.I will let it finish,distill and continue with corn to replace the spent grain that floats up along with 25% backset and another 16 lbs. of sugar ala UJSM...I guess I will do this 4 times and see how it turns out...does this sound about right? Any thoughts appreciated...Thanks.

[brewzz]

So,now i'm about to distill the second iteration of this.I stripped the first and I'm not quite sure what I want to do this time.I'm thinkin strip them all and do a spirit run with all the low wines from about 6-7 batches,or add the low wines from the first to this run and get some whiskey now...What have you guys been doing?I have plenty of hooch laying around,so I can afford to wait a few weeks for the whiskey...

[punkin]

I do both methods. With my ujsm, i wait till i have 20 or so litres of stripped low wines, add a couple litres of wash, then do a slow spirit run. With my allgrain mashes, in order to maximize flavour, i strip either one or two washes, then add the low wines to the next wash and run slow with cuts.

Seeing as you got plenty it might be an idea to try both methods and report back here as to which you think better and why?

Always good to see another voice expounding on experiments and practices

[carlos castenada]

hi,

never crossed my mind to add a coulple of liters of wash to line wines, makes sense to give flavour a boost.
when i made my first 3 gen's i use a reflux but it stripped the flavor out to much, i redistilled these with backset added and the flavour returned ok, (using new pot still built in a hurry). makes sense really as you're only seperating the alchol from the
wash then putting the two back together again.
have you tried adding wash or backset from a later gen to a wash or low wines of a first or second gen would this bring flavour on?.

how did the sour starter flavour compare to the orignal ujsm, did it bring the flavour on sooner

cheers

[brewzz]

I tasted the wash from each batch,and I would have to say,the first one tasted ok but the later ones tasted so good,I would consider drinking it as a sweet and sour beer...not sure what it would do to my stomach though...one more iteration and I'm gonna do a spirit run.I've been stripping the washes and have close to 5 gal. of low wines...

[brewzz]

Anyone ever try adding a couple large cans of sweet corn to a sugar wash?I wonder if that would give you a good flavor?