How long can a wash keep
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How long can a wash keep
Hello everybody!
I have been reading everything I can on this site and think it is a wealth of info! I am new to the game though have brewed the odd beer a few years back. Recently bought a PDA-1 and have attached it to a 60Ltr SS drum (a solid pressure rated vessel that was used for AFFF in fire systems!!)heated via 3 ring burner. I have cooked off my first sugar wash (6kg's sugar, pkt of Alcotec turbo and topped to 22lts water, 1 x tblspn tomato paste, 1 x tspn vegimite (complex B group) start SG=1.078) The ferment was slow (at approx 22-24 degrees C) and took over a week - this I can understand. I found an old packet of turbo yeast that was out of date by miles!!..but decided to add a few teaspoons worth to see if the nutrient may help. It seemed to help a little but fermentation appeared to stop around SG=0.997 - perhaps I may have been a little hasty??! Theoretical ABV = 10.5%
Anyways, into the cook pot it went...firstly after arriving at a somewhat stable column temp of 79.4 deg C the first 100ml was discarded and I proceeded to collect the next 250ml of heads - these were somewhat cloudy and had a strong ammonia smell. I have read that this is probably do to the yeast not using up all the nutrient ie. fermentation not complete or yeast died leaving behind too much nutrient.The next 300-400ml was similar but of better quality (approx 1-2 drops per second from condenser) tasted better and only a faint hint of ammonia. Lastly, about another 250ml of tails and the congeners were really starting to appear. The total volume of only about 1 ltr is very low I know, calcs said I should get approx 2.3 lts...I could possibly have kept going but the odours were getting quite bad and the smell from the wash was ghastly when I opened the pot!!! The still temp didn't rise about 79-80 deg C .
Possibly the SS vessel was not properly clean - even though I thrashed it with detergent, heated and washed out numerous times.
I can see several errors for myself and thus room for improvement and altering of some variables - constant reading of this site tells me so (thankyou all!!) I will probably pour the whole lot back into the pot and cook off with my second wash. I would appreciate any comments to the above as well in case I have missed anything - I have been reading about the horrors of Turbo's and have taken that to heart, however I wish to proceed for a little while longer in order to fine tune my processes and get to know the product - before switching over to grain based washes. I will be sure to up-load some pics of my set-up soon as well.
Anyways...The question I have is: I work FIFO and so at times I am not home for 3 weeks or thereabouts. Currently I do not have enough time left to prepare another wash before I fly out again. SO!!...Could anyone please advise me of the "keeping" properties of a wash??? Could I set one going and come back in three weeks and run it through the cooker - will it go off??? Being WInter here in OZ temps can fall well below 18deg C and I have an old heater band from my beer days - though this is not regulated and so maybe in danger of overheating the wash if left on whilst I am away (I may have to make some sort of regulated heat-house). Is there any danger with these new yeasts falling over if temps get too low for a period of time??
Ok...I have rattled on a bit for my first post...will leave it the for the moment and keep reading. Any feed back greatly appreciated.
(witty quotation pending)...
I have been reading everything I can on this site and think it is a wealth of info! I am new to the game though have brewed the odd beer a few years back. Recently bought a PDA-1 and have attached it to a 60Ltr SS drum (a solid pressure rated vessel that was used for AFFF in fire systems!!)heated via 3 ring burner. I have cooked off my first sugar wash (6kg's sugar, pkt of Alcotec turbo and topped to 22lts water, 1 x tblspn tomato paste, 1 x tspn vegimite (complex B group) start SG=1.078) The ferment was slow (at approx 22-24 degrees C) and took over a week - this I can understand. I found an old packet of turbo yeast that was out of date by miles!!..but decided to add a few teaspoons worth to see if the nutrient may help. It seemed to help a little but fermentation appeared to stop around SG=0.997 - perhaps I may have been a little hasty??! Theoretical ABV = 10.5%
Anyways, into the cook pot it went...firstly after arriving at a somewhat stable column temp of 79.4 deg C the first 100ml was discarded and I proceeded to collect the next 250ml of heads - these were somewhat cloudy and had a strong ammonia smell. I have read that this is probably do to the yeast not using up all the nutrient ie. fermentation not complete or yeast died leaving behind too much nutrient.The next 300-400ml was similar but of better quality (approx 1-2 drops per second from condenser) tasted better and only a faint hint of ammonia. Lastly, about another 250ml of tails and the congeners were really starting to appear. The total volume of only about 1 ltr is very low I know, calcs said I should get approx 2.3 lts...I could possibly have kept going but the odours were getting quite bad and the smell from the wash was ghastly when I opened the pot!!! The still temp didn't rise about 79-80 deg C .
Possibly the SS vessel was not properly clean - even though I thrashed it with detergent, heated and washed out numerous times.
I can see several errors for myself and thus room for improvement and altering of some variables - constant reading of this site tells me so (thankyou all!!) I will probably pour the whole lot back into the pot and cook off with my second wash. I would appreciate any comments to the above as well in case I have missed anything - I have been reading about the horrors of Turbo's and have taken that to heart, however I wish to proceed for a little while longer in order to fine tune my processes and get to know the product - before switching over to grain based washes. I will be sure to up-load some pics of my set-up soon as well.
Anyways...The question I have is: I work FIFO and so at times I am not home for 3 weeks or thereabouts. Currently I do not have enough time left to prepare another wash before I fly out again. SO!!...Could anyone please advise me of the "keeping" properties of a wash??? Could I set one going and come back in three weeks and run it through the cooker - will it go off??? Being WInter here in OZ temps can fall well below 18deg C and I have an old heater band from my beer days - though this is not regulated and so maybe in danger of overheating the wash if left on whilst I am away (I may have to make some sort of regulated heat-house). Is there any danger with these new yeasts falling over if temps get too low for a period of time??
Ok...I have rattled on a bit for my first post...will leave it the for the moment and keep reading. Any feed back greatly appreciated.
(witty quotation pending)...
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Re: How long can a wash keep
A wash is no different than a beer or wine, so put an air lock on it, and it will be fine when you get back to it.
Re: How long can a wash keep
First run through any still, wether home-built or commercial, should be considered as a throw away. Lots of places for flux and oils to hide, no matter how hard you scrub, and the alcohol vapors clean them out.
The low output is a little disconcerting, could have a small leak somewhere. Only takes a pinhole to lose a fair amount of product.
My personal opinion, drop the Turbo's (They have more neutriants than needed already, and you added more), and use a baker's or brewer's yeast. I've had good results with Saf-ale 33 or ec1118. For cooler weather you might look at a lager yeast(designed to work @ +/- 40*F).
I've let washes set for 2 weeks or better with no problems.
The low output is a little disconcerting, could have a small leak somewhere. Only takes a pinhole to lose a fair amount of product.
My personal opinion, drop the Turbo's (They have more neutriants than needed already, and you added more), and use a baker's or brewer's yeast. I've had good results with Saf-ale 33 or ec1118. For cooler weather you might look at a lager yeast(designed to work @ +/- 40*F).
I've let washes set for 2 weeks or better with no problems.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
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Re: How long can a wash keep
It sounds like you didn't allow the yeast and all the solids to settle out of your wash. You will need to do this as boiling these things produces nasty stuff called furfurals.
Re: How long can a wash keep
Thanks for the info guys -
Hawk, that certainly is a good point about first run I had figured much the same but hearing it from someone else helps to clear the way forward. As far as low output goes...I think it was more to do with me stopping the run early due to the horrible smells etc - the wash still had an "alcoholic" smell about it the next day when I tipped it out - figured no point in keeping it going if it wasn't working. Also thanks for the confirmation about the turbo's...will opt for a more traditional ferment (this will also suit me being away as by the time the ferment finishes it will be sitting for less time).
Thanks Chunkystyles for that info too - I am normally fairly careful when decanting the wash (as I was with beer making) however this time I know some sediment slipped through. Will revise my process to siphoning or something similar.
Thank you to Barney too...good to know I can let the wash sit. Usually I was unable to do this with beer making as it would start to go off on some occasions - perhaps due to wild yeast setting in or the likes.
Still reading - still learning, normally I have found what I need here...but it helps tremendously to hear from others answering directly to your concerns - this site is huge and has so much info here that one could spend an age sifting for similar answers to similar problems...never the less - may it keep on growing!!!
Hawk, that certainly is a good point about first run I had figured much the same but hearing it from someone else helps to clear the way forward. As far as low output goes...I think it was more to do with me stopping the run early due to the horrible smells etc - the wash still had an "alcoholic" smell about it the next day when I tipped it out - figured no point in keeping it going if it wasn't working. Also thanks for the confirmation about the turbo's...will opt for a more traditional ferment (this will also suit me being away as by the time the ferment finishes it will be sitting for less time).
Thanks Chunkystyles for that info too - I am normally fairly careful when decanting the wash (as I was with beer making) however this time I know some sediment slipped through. Will revise my process to siphoning or something similar.
Thank you to Barney too...good to know I can let the wash sit. Usually I was unable to do this with beer making as it would start to go off on some occasions - perhaps due to wild yeast setting in or the likes.
Still reading - still learning, normally I have found what I need here...but it helps tremendously to hear from others answering directly to your concerns - this site is huge and has so much info here that one could spend an age sifting for similar answers to similar problems...never the less - may it keep on growing!!!
Re: How long can a wash keep
When using Turbo Yeasts, “”follow”” the instructions on the packet. I use a Turbo that comes with a sachet of liquid carbon included, if yours doesn’t, get one. I then use Turbo Klar to clear it, “perfect”, then run through the “Still”
With my other “hat” on I also run the UJSM (love it) for my Whisky & harvest the yeast for the next run (perfect)
Regards Travis
Frankenstill
“Still” learning as I go along
(Jekyl & Hyde) Turbo's "&" UJSM
With my other “hat” on I also run the UJSM (love it) for my Whisky & harvest the yeast for the next run (perfect)
Regards Travis
Frankenstill
“Still” learning as I go along
(Jekyl & Hyde) Turbo's "&" UJSM
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Re: How long can a wash keep
In my experience, a wash based on sugar, molasses, honey, malt extracts, fruit juices--any kind of homogeneous liquid without a lot of "gunk" floating around in it will keep in a sealed fermentation vessel under an airlock pretty much indefinitely. If you let it sit on a bed of dead/inactive yeast for weeks or longer, you may start to get off flavors from yeast autolysis, as with beer, so I would rack anything to a secondary fermeneter that I wasn't going to get to in a couple of weeks.
If you're using un-boiled grains or fruits, like Uncle Jesse's famous sour mash recipe (un-boiled cracked corn), you've got a different story. Then you can get a secondary fermentation from bacteria over time, which renders the whole thing undrinkably pungent. Some people say you need to distill a corn mash within 3-4 days. I do fine letting it go a week--but six weeks (from experience) is too long.
If you're using un-boiled grains or fruits, like Uncle Jesse's famous sour mash recipe (un-boiled cracked corn), you've got a different story. Then you can get a secondary fermentation from bacteria over time, which renders the whole thing undrinkably pungent. Some people say you need to distill a corn mash within 3-4 days. I do fine letting it go a week--but six weeks (from experience) is too long.
Re: How long can a wash keep
Three weeks should be fine as others have said - but longer may be a problem due to yeast autolysis. Essentially, "she'll be right, mate!"
Make sure you use a proper airlock on the fermenter and perhaps go to the 'trouble' of putting a drop of bleach into the airlock along with the water. This'll stop any nasties from breeding in it [not that this has ever happened to me, but you can't be too careful].
Cheers - boingk
Make sure you use a proper airlock on the fermenter and perhaps go to the 'trouble' of putting a drop of bleach into the airlock along with the water. This'll stop any nasties from breeding in it [not that this has ever happened to me, but you can't be too careful].
Cheers - boingk
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Re: How long can a wash keep
I have a PDA-1 and started with 48hr turbos and 6kg sugar. After experimenting with bread yeast and vegemite & tomato paste I went back to the turbo's, now with 8kg sugar. My results are great, but I prefer to filter the results through activated carbon. My neighbour says he likes my "clear beer" with and without filtering.
I have a Mashmaster temperature controller http://www.mashmaster.com/p/365439/frid ... r-kit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which can also control a fridge in the summer. I am in Queensland, the Sunshine Coast so I have 2C to 45c variations in temp.
I have four fermenters so I can let my ferments take their time. After the bubbling has finished (7 days) I put the fermenter on a high shelf and leave it 1 to 3 weeks to settle, without adding anything to help it settle. i have tried the turbo yeast that comes with its own carbon, and the settler that was recommended for it, plus I have tried beer finings & egg whites (not together). The best settler is time (hence 4 fermenters).
I do a strip run on the finished ferment without the copper packing & the needle valve fully open. I have a 25 litre boiler with dual elements of 2kw & 900w. I heat up with both and "cook" with the 900w.
The strip run takes about 5 hours and gives 7 or 8 litres of 60-65%, depending how high you let the temp run to (95 or 96c)
The purer "full" run I do with the copper packing in, use both elements to warm up, then turn to the 900w only when the temp is 80c. The temp throughout the "hearts" of the run depends on how much water you added to the stripped product (79.8 to 80c for me). I fill my boiler above the elements then another 5 litres for luck. Better not boil stuff above 45-50%. If its too strong % it makes my elements give out a "bumping" sort of noise which I think is bits of element coming off.
The PDA-1 makers recommend about 30 drips per second at 750w heat input. My 900w element is a bit too much so I play a desktop fan onto my boilers side, not directly but off to one side. I drip about 20 drips per second and my run is about 18 to 20 hours. I spread it over two days and have a good long reflux (with the needle valve closed after temp is reached) on day two, about an hour or maybe a bit longer. Let the product drip on your finger (PDA-1 product comes out cool), rub it with your finger & thumb, if its oily its probably not hearts (or what you want to collect to drink). Give it a good sniff as well and you will soon be using this method a lot. Its easy to tell when the heads are finished this way.
Using about two litres of heads & tails from the run before as well as the 7 litres of strippate,I end up with 4 to 4.5 liters of good stuff (96%). thats 7 or 8 litres of 40%
when settled & put into the boiler, your ferment must be as clear as water. A little cloudy is ok but more cloud = more off tastes.
Final run of 9 litres of 60 to 65% = 4 to 4.5 of 95-6% or 7 or 8 litres of 40%.
I used to get 2 or 3 litres (40%) when I used 6kg with a turbo. With practise you get better.
At the start of my hobby I found it hard to believe that I would get 5 or 6 litres per run! That was a year and a half ago.
Mr law please note: all the above is a work of fiction
I have a Mashmaster temperature controller http://www.mashmaster.com/p/365439/frid ... r-kit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which can also control a fridge in the summer. I am in Queensland, the Sunshine Coast so I have 2C to 45c variations in temp.
I have four fermenters so I can let my ferments take their time. After the bubbling has finished (7 days) I put the fermenter on a high shelf and leave it 1 to 3 weeks to settle, without adding anything to help it settle. i have tried the turbo yeast that comes with its own carbon, and the settler that was recommended for it, plus I have tried beer finings & egg whites (not together). The best settler is time (hence 4 fermenters).
I do a strip run on the finished ferment without the copper packing & the needle valve fully open. I have a 25 litre boiler with dual elements of 2kw & 900w. I heat up with both and "cook" with the 900w.
The strip run takes about 5 hours and gives 7 or 8 litres of 60-65%, depending how high you let the temp run to (95 or 96c)
The purer "full" run I do with the copper packing in, use both elements to warm up, then turn to the 900w only when the temp is 80c. The temp throughout the "hearts" of the run depends on how much water you added to the stripped product (79.8 to 80c for me). I fill my boiler above the elements then another 5 litres for luck. Better not boil stuff above 45-50%. If its too strong % it makes my elements give out a "bumping" sort of noise which I think is bits of element coming off.
The PDA-1 makers recommend about 30 drips per second at 750w heat input. My 900w element is a bit too much so I play a desktop fan onto my boilers side, not directly but off to one side. I drip about 20 drips per second and my run is about 18 to 20 hours. I spread it over two days and have a good long reflux (with the needle valve closed after temp is reached) on day two, about an hour or maybe a bit longer. Let the product drip on your finger (PDA-1 product comes out cool), rub it with your finger & thumb, if its oily its probably not hearts (or what you want to collect to drink). Give it a good sniff as well and you will soon be using this method a lot. Its easy to tell when the heads are finished this way.
Using about two litres of heads & tails from the run before as well as the 7 litres of strippate,I end up with 4 to 4.5 liters of good stuff (96%). thats 7 or 8 litres of 40%
when settled & put into the boiler, your ferment must be as clear as water. A little cloudy is ok but more cloud = more off tastes.
Final run of 9 litres of 60 to 65% = 4 to 4.5 of 95-6% or 7 or 8 litres of 40%.
I used to get 2 or 3 litres (40%) when I used 6kg with a turbo. With practise you get better.
At the start of my hobby I found it hard to believe that I would get 5 or 6 litres per run! That was a year and a half ago.
Mr law please note: all the above is a work of fiction
I love a good film & a vodka or two. Can never remember the ending though :>)
Re: How long can a wash keep
Whats the liquid carbon for?? Carbon in the wort is generally used to absorb fusels and nasties as the wash ferments. Do not confuse carbon with a finings/clearing agent, they are two separate addatives and serve completely different purposes. If the carbon in the wash is to absorb nasties it has to be removed before stilling, otherwise the heat causes the nasties to separate from the carbon and up the column it goes with all the good stuff.travis wrote:When using Turbo Yeasts, “”follow”” the instructions on the packet. I use a Turbo that comes with a sachet of liquid carbon included, if yours doesn’t, get one. I then use Turbo Klar to clear it, “perfect”, then run through the “Still”
With my other “hat” on I also run the UJSM (love it) for my Whisky & harvest the yeast for the next run (perfect)
Regards Travis
Frankenstill
“Still” learning as I go along
(Jekyl & Hyde) Turbo's "&" UJSM
I fully agree to follow turbo instructions, but I would recommend running through activated carbon after stilling.
Re: How long can a wash keep
Hopefully, for a bloody long time.
I started a Birdwatchers as my first back on 13 January 2008.
For one reason or another I lost track of it - sure it was stiil there whenever I went to my brew shed but other things took precedence.
Recently I took stock, realised I needed the fermenter.
Will run a PDA-1, all set up to go just not got around to it; boiler set up means wash must be as clear as - so fined it to ensure.
This wash has been active ever since I put it down. Varies from day to day but can always count on some action. Continued even after the fining (bentonite).
So bottled it today. No off tastes, SG 991.
Will get to cook it eventually, just hope there're no bottle bombs meanwhile. Loosed a cap late this arvo, there was a slight whoosh!
Fingers crossed. Will get it done eventually.
I started a Birdwatchers as my first back on 13 January 2008.
For one reason or another I lost track of it - sure it was stiil there whenever I went to my brew shed but other things took precedence.
Recently I took stock, realised I needed the fermenter.
Will run a PDA-1, all set up to go just not got around to it; boiler set up means wash must be as clear as - so fined it to ensure.
This wash has been active ever since I put it down. Varies from day to day but can always count on some action. Continued even after the fining (bentonite).
So bottled it today. No off tastes, SG 991.
Will get to cook it eventually, just hope there're no bottle bombs meanwhile. Loosed a cap late this arvo, there was a slight whoosh!
Fingers crossed. Will get it done eventually.