mashing with corn

[JonB]

We are gonna try mashing corn again sometime soon. I've read the various posts on this site and I seem to understand the process. However it is not clear to me what form of corn to start with. Advice/clarification is most welcome.

-Clearly flaked maize is the the best, but this is expensive
- Corn meal could work, but the stuff I see in the store appears to be enriched with iron and niacin. I don't think I want that stuff in my mash. I also read about the corn germ being oily and again I don't think I want this in my mash either.
- Cracked corn may not be available to me, but I do have a malt grinder. Can I get untreated popcorn kernels and grind these? Again what about the germ?
- Up north we don't have grits, so this seems to be out. :-( We also don't have animal feed stores here and so its the local supermarket that I need to work with. Time is also a factor, and so I need to balance this as well.

Finally, I do have some left over flaked maize (about 2 lbs) that I'd like to use. If I'm mashing the corn bits or meal, should I put this into the pot at the start (with a touch of malt for the enzyme) or later on?

Thanks to all in advanced and for making this such a useful resource.

[Usge]

It's cracked corn (animal feed). Cargill brand is good/clean. TractorSupply stores carry Producers Pride brand which is ok too (not quite as clean as Cargill though). 40-50lb bag of it is about 8 to 10 dollars. Of course, if you have to have it shipped to you....that's where the cost comes in. I found a place that would ship 40lb bag of Cargill cracked corn for about 28 bucks delivered to my door. The corn costs 7 dollars or so. The rest is shipping. Anytime I'm out in a rural area (or my friends go), I often keep an eye out and pick up a bag, throw it in the trunk. In some areas....even grocery stores have it. Just got to keep an eye out.

[Dnderhead]

often soled as bird feed.

[junkyard dawg]

you need a feed store...

corn meal would work...but comes with a host of problems. I've never used brew shop flaked maize, but have used the stuff that is sold at the feedstore. I always got lousy yields with it. The brew shop flaked corn is probably better but I've never tried it. My LHBS ships for 6 bucks and they sell bulk grains... its pretty expensive compared to the feedstore, but if you don't have a local source, its not out of the question... you can drink off a 50 pound sack for a long time...

[trthskr4]

You need a feed store bad!

Check pet shops for bird feed or find somewhere that sells chicken feed (corn chops), I couldn't imagine living somewhere that doesn't have feed stores. Is there any hunting around there, I ask because you may try hardware stores for deer corn even and grind it in your mill. You're not the first one here who's had problems sourcing corn though.

[smokerscully1]

My closest feed store is 130 miles away--not something to be taken for granted. I found some bird feed in the local hardware store that was mostly cracked corn--it had some small black seeds in it I think are Niger seed and plenty of sunflower seeds. I used it to make UJSM and it worked off fine and tastes like corn white dog.

[pro65]

you need a feed store...

corn meal would work...but comes with a host of problems. I've never used brew shop flaked maize, but have used the stuff that is sold at the feed store. I always got lousy yields with it. The brew shop flaked corn is probably better but I've never tried it. My LHBS ships for 6 bucks and they sell bulk grains... its pretty expensive compared to the feedstore, but if you don't have a local source, its not out of the question... you can drink off a 50 pound sack for a long time...

I make my corn mash out of flaked maze and 6 row barley malt and prestige wd yeast. It is a great recipe other than squeezing the juice from the flaked maze after fermenting is complete. But I purchased an old fruit press off eBay and now its a piece of cake. It cooks off great and spurge's well at 160 degrees. It cost $ 5.00 per 5lbs and in a 26 liter wash it only takes 8.8 lbs. Or you can buy 50lbs for $52 dollars.

If you want my recipe just let me know.

[JonB]

we found a feed store close to a relative. We'll try our luck there for the cracked corn. Would we be better off looking at the poultry feed or the horse feed? (us city folks are kinda clueless as u can tell)

Also is there anything we need to be careful of? For instance, does feed stock have added nutrients or anything? I don't believe they carry the cargill brand, so are there other brands that are recommended?

No one responded to the "oily germ" question. Is this a problem with beer making only (for head retention)?

Thx

[Dnderhead]

Just ask for cracked corn otherwise if you dont know what your looking at there could be other things mixed in ( grains/ molasses etc)
cracked corn is sort of "generic" feed ( Horses, cows, poultry etc and yes if your hard up you too.
and dont worry about oil never had a problem.

[JonB]

Hee Haw - got me a 50lb back of cracked corn and was thrilled that it was super cheap.

This is a great way to start a new year. Thanks y'all.

[Tater]

White corn was what grand pa preferred.Claimed that yellow corn had to much oil in it.Dunder or Goose should know more about that.

[Dnderhead]

yes Tater is correct,, in a way, over the years corn has been bred for "high protein" and has more oil .but I do not thank color has
much to do with it .the corn that is raised is the south west, for flour, ( tortillas etc)(that is the way all corn was white was the last to change) whould be the best.they are bringing back high starch corn but I do not thank it is available to the public as yet.( maybe never, after all your not supposed to be doing this)
you have to do with what you can git, you wont see much oil on the top , maybe afue "sparkles"or "a shimmer" but you do have less yield
as the protein replaces the starch. just make good use of it. use it all .Turb, makes good animal feed, dried goes good in bread etc.
( yes it is good to eat, high in protein and same corn as in "corn meal"

[Usge]

You can buy stone ground organic white cornmeal for making tortillas, etc., from organic places. But....it ain't cheap..compared to current prices for yellow corn. You can also buy organic white/dent corn here: (it ai'nt cheap either) http://www.homegrownharvest.com/whitecorn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[JonB]

The stuff we got appears to be "cow corn" ($12 for 50lbs). We milled it down from 6 pieces to about 12 pieces per kernel and it seemed to mash out ok. We got only an OG of 1.030 but I think this was because we err'd on the side of caution and wanted to go thin rather than make a sticky mess that burned. It smell'd good and we added no sugar.

What kind a corn do they all use down in Kentucky?

Also we are reading lots of conflicting things about whether to boil or not to boil: For example from the main FAQ Mashing page
"To make a grain mash for whiskey : Heat 4 kg cracked or crushed malt with 18 L of water to 63-65 °C, and hold there for 1-1.5 hours. Heat to 73-75 °C, then strain off and keep liquid, using 250 mL of hot water to rinse the grains. Cool to below 30 °C (should have an initial specific gravity of 1.050). Add hydrated yeast & leave to ferment."

Others suggest adding the corn to boiling water to help break out the starch. Indeed after an hour of boiling we have what looks like wallpaper paste. Does this also happen at the lower temperature?

[Dnderhead]

"we have what looks like wallpaper paste" if you add a small amount of malt/ enzymes during the boil that wont happen.

[JonB]

I'm having an "Ah ha" moment!! I thought that enzymes couldn't live above 165F (from my beer brewing knowledge). Though this threshold has more to do with tannins from the husk I guess?

So then for 18L (with some crushed malt), would 12lbs of cracked corn be too much? I guess I could use the tools under the calculator, but one of y'all might just know off the top of your head. Would like to reach close to an OG of 1080.

[Dnderhead]

the enzymes do deactivate, but last long enough to help it from getting to the "pudding" stage

[pintoshine]

Like Dunderhead said, the corn doesn't really start gelatinizing until about 180F. The pre-malting helps to break down a bit of the thick gloppy corn past because the alpha-amylase is usually tolerant to temps up to 180 for a very short amount of time. Just long enough to liquefy the gelatinized starch. When you bring the temperature back to 154F, that is when you add the rest. The the conversion is very fast from thin paste to liquid maltose sugar.

[Wohzah]

I don't know much on the topic, but corn starch is I believe a fermentable sugar. You could just use pure corn starch boiled into a mash and then fermented. This I don't think would not retain much character. Again though, I am quite a bit of a novice.

[junkyard dawg]

I don't know much on the topic,

yeah, well thats never stopped us before.

Its starch, not fermentable sugar.

This is very simplified, but starch consists of sugars that are joined together. The yeast cannot utilize the starch, it needs us to add enzymes, usually in the form of malt, to break the starch into fermentable sugars. You are right, it would not retain much character. Welcome to the forum... happy reading and happy fermenting.

[trthskr4]

I don't know much on the topic,

yeah, well thats never stopped us before.

Doesn't matter anyway, just when I think I've got it figured out somebody else comes along with a different experience or more knowledge and blows me away again.

This shit's like Kung-fu, you never get done learning.

[Dnderhead]

""This shit's like Kung-fu, you never get done learning."" bin doing a long time and still learning. you can always fiend new ways to do things
improve efficiency etc. "try it you mite like it".