To crack or not to crack?

[phatsteve]

The flaked maize I buy from the homebrew shop is cracked so finely it is like a bag of biscuit crumbs, but I get a respectable conversion rate when I mash with pale malted barley. My recipe for 20ltrs (4gals) is

3kg flaked maize
1kg pale malted barley
2 teasp amylase

After mashing I strain onto 1kg sugar,this give me an OG of 1.80, which I'm quite happy with. I realise this is not all fermentables, but seems ok, taking approx 2 weeks to ferment out.
The problem is the price of the flaked maize ($3 per kilo with delivery)
I can get 'partially cooked' (their description) flaked maize from the local pets feedstore for $15 for 20kg!
This is a vast saving. My question is this, before mashing.
Should I crack the maize? (it is whole flakes, quite large)
Should I soak it?
Should I cook it?
or can I just use it as it comes?

Also, after mashing, should I strain off the liquor, or is there any benefit with fermenting on the grains?
Thankyou

[Dnderhead]

if it is flaked no cracking nesasary, thow it mite take more cooking than that from a brew shop.
on or off the grain, is up to you,, I do singel batches on, and maltapul off the grain.

[astrangebrew]

There are two different beasts:
Flaked maize is already-dispersed corn that is hot-rolled the way rolled oats are made. Ground corn meal is undispersed.
Flaked - you don't need to boil 150Fand add the malt or enzymes. Corn meal needs a full boil to disperse the starches.

My suggestion, get some a play. I'll bet you will save a bucket of money (worst you will learn something).

SB

[phatsteve]

Thanks for replies, I was only asking because the flaked maize from the brewshop was milled so fine, and I got good results from it.
I didn't know if the fine milling influenced the mechanics of the mash, enabling the starch to be converted better/quicker?
And I'll certainly try fermenting on the grains, straining is such a chore!

[noobsauce]

Could be wrong but far as i can see the finer the product basically seems to allow faster separation of starches..actual conversion of the starches "shouldnt" change once separation has occured, assuming full separation. The answer, i think, depends on whether you can mill it finer easily or not. If so it wouldnt hurt, but if its alot of work, then just cooking longer sounds easier.

*Tried a fermentation on the grain. I had alot of problems with the grain floating up and trying to get out of the wash bucket . I think the large cap i got was locking gas under it and lifting causing the problem.

[phatsteve]

ok, thanks for suggestions, I'm going to try a few runs with and without cracking (milling), and with and without fermenting on grains
and compare results. This could take some time as I only brew once every 3 weeks or so.

[noobsauce]

GL and keep us posted.

[Dnderhead]

you do not want your grain so fine that the water/enzymes cannot circulate ,if it just compacts on bottom, you will need to keep it stird

[phatsteve]

Thanks Dnderhead, I thought I would just crack it like my pale malt, I wasn't going to mill it as fine as the brewshop flakes,
that had an average particle size of approx 3mm. I thought I'd try for cracking the flakes into 3 or 4 pieces if my mill will do it.

[Bull Rider]

So, flaked maize doesn't need to be boiled for long periods? It just needs to be cooked in the 180 degrees range?

What about rolled corn, does it need to be cooked too? Does it need to be boiled? I have two row barley. I'm thinking that if I take the rolled corn up to 180 or so for an hour or two, cool down to 150 and toss in 10% malted, cracked two row, then let it rest at 145 or so for an hour or two it should convert. Right?

Should I order up the enzymes from Mile-Hi? I can get two row for about 30 bucks for a 50 pound sack.

I'm going to do figure out how to make a corn mash without sugar. I guess I just need to get my keggle out and start cooking corn.

Thanks.

[rubber duck]

If it's flaked your good it's cooked already. If it's rolled then it's been steamed but not fully cooked. flaked is ready to convert. It's going to take more 10% to convert 25% to 35% 2 row will do it and 145 to 150f starting temp to convert held for 4 hours.

At 30 bucks for a sack of 2 row use a lot of malt to start.

[Dnderhead]

correct, I add crushed malt then heat to 150f (66c) then rap in a blankit and leave it over night/day, some use a cooler. if it settles to the bottom,
give a stir once and a while.

[Nies]

Say dnder, is there a reason that you are letting the mash sit that long other than conversion? I am just curious. I brewed a set of experimental beers about a year ago, to find the flavor of the corn in the beer. So one of my recipes contained 30% British 2-row and 60% flaked corn and 10% black strap. The molasses was for color and thinning mouth feel. Any who's I was reading this post and I thought " Boy, that is a long time!" My conversion was longer than normal but it was still less than two hours. Some info: I do 10 gallon batches or 40 liters. Is leaving it over night a flavor thing?

[Dnderhead]

It just seems to work out good for me, I usually cook mash while I'm running the still, and by the time the mash has cooled
off enough to add malt Iv seen enough of that out fit, so I just add the malt, "put the mash to bed" then the next
morning it has cooled enough to pitch the yeast. then start all over.

[Nies]

So it really is about simplicity. I like it. That is the way I like to brew as well. Once you have a good consistent, and comfortable system, you can sit back and enjoy the finer points of the art. Thanks for the reply Dnder.

[rubber duck]

I also go all night, it's done a lot sooner then that, (I like to go 4 hours or so) but it's a easy way to do it.