Franki's sister The Evil Twins Still

[olddog]

I know I have posted test results before, but now I have found the macro button on my camera so I though I would post the latest results so everyone can see instead of taking my word for it. Again it was 25ltrs of UJSSM.

Setup with leibig and cooling system

Taking Heads

Start of hearts collection

3 litres of hearts collected now down to a dribble

I then light all 3 burners on my banjo burner to try and get some tails, even with all burners going flat out I could only get a dribble to by-pass the plates. That tails return sure works.

OD

[Barney Fife]

Beee Ute Eee Full! Say, how do you get the copper to stay shiny like that? Mines takes-on a patina right away...

I then light all 3 burners on my banjo burner to try and get some tails, even with all burners going flat out I could only get a dribble to by-pass the plates. That tails return sure works.

Wow! It is efficient at keeping the tails back. Yet another reason a Tee and bypass set of valves at the return would be nice; you could switch them to collect the returned tails while also collecting the dribble from the condenser. More collected volume for the same power input. BUT. If the tails have been stripped so cleanly of ethanol, there's nothing to be gained, perhaps. Oh... flavor. Concentrated flavor(sorry, the proper word for those flavor compounds eludes me at this hour)!! Perhaps if collected, these highly concentrated tails may hold enough flavor compounds to make a neutral sugar wash taste like the real article if added to the boiler. Like, maybe(just pulling numbers out for fun here) the collected tails of 3 rum washes would flavor up one neutral sugar wash, or the collected tails of a 5 generations of UJSM would flavor up one or two sugar-only neutrals.

I've figured out how to collect my returned tails before they reach the boiler, and do it on the cheap(a must on me budget), so I'll be doing this as soon as Tuesday. I'd love to have have you doing it also, so we may compare notes! right now, my collected tails from my uppermost plate(the one with the takeoff valve) show me roughly 20%ABV when running at 1500 watts. I collected them randomly, by taking the contents of the plate every now and again, so it will be interesting to see what the collected whole of the return will be. Not to mention what it will taste and smell of.

[Barney Fife]

Here's where I'd add a tee and valves(green circled area). One valve would be on the Tee's lower(collection) leg, while the other would be right about at the boiler return point(the red area). With the collection closed and return open, you'd run as you do now, but close the return and open the collection and you collect all those returned tails.

[butt wheat]

Results of my build. My buddy ran it while i was at work using 7gal charge of 10-12% rum wash. Anyhow, 80% ABV off the bat
80% - 70% Heads; 70-47% Hearts; 46%-10% Tails
Said the molasses flavor came through in all parts
It apperars that there is no need to do a strip run...Just as barney Fife stated...its equal to 2-3 runs or using a thumper

[olddog]

Here's the latest mutation, with new second column, and heads return with a inline leibig condenser.
I have only done a cleaning run so far, my next UJSSM batch will finish in a couple of days, and I will be able to do a proper test.

[rednose]

Looks great Olddog, can't await the results.

Joe

Here's the latest mutation, with new second column, and heads return with a inline leibig condenser.
I have only done a cleaning run so far, my next UJSSM batch will finish in a couple of days, and I will be able to do a proper test.

[Barney Fife]

I feel like such a slacker..... <lol>

Nice!

[HookLine]

I feel like such a slacker..... <lol>

Me too.

Nice work, OD. Look forward to the results.

[kiwistiller]

Olddog, do you ever sleep? amazing stuff.

(we need an applause smiley)

[olddog]

Gotto have something to do while waiting for ferments to finish, otherwise I would get bored.

[Centimeter]

I like this a lot. I'm curious about the tails return though. Why don't you get pooling in the arm that leads from the first column to the second column? It seems like a better place to put the tails return would be at the bottom of the bend on the arm leading up to the second column. You could then drop your return point (after the P) down so that way you don't get any pooling in the vapor path. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd also be curious how this still performs w/o the tail return- seeing as you've got extra time on your hands! I think that this tail return is a really elegant idea that could be implemented in many still designs- it'd be nice to put it to the test and see what it's actually doing for you.

Also, I see that you have the top of your second column leading to a condenser back into the boiler. It seems like this would interrupt the fractionating process as you're recycling low boiling volatiles back into the pot, which i could see messing up equilibrium. The same concern goes for the tail return, although less so (which is why I'd be curious to see a w/ and w/o analysis). Perhaps a cold finger that returns the distillate back to the top of the second column would be more appropriate? Or even just having a one-way path into the product condenser.

Anyhow, beautiful work- thanks for posting it.

[olddog]

I like this a lot. I'm curious about the tails return though

The connecting tube from column 1 extend into the base of column 2 about 4" so the tails drop to the base of the column to be returned to the boiler via the S bend which prevents vapour from the boiler entering column 2 via the tails return.

Also, I see that you have the top of your second column leading to a condenser back into the boiler

This is to allow heads to be returned to the boiler to be re-distilled along with the tails, the hearts are taken off the spirit plate in Bokabob style.
The whole design was adapted from a Coffey still for a single batch distillation, whereas a Coffey still is designed for continous distillation.

[Centimeter]

I see now that my question was poorly worded. I guess what I'm trying to ask is why you don't get pooling at the bottom of the arm leading up to the second column? From the looks of it, it seems like you would. I could see this maybe introducing a bit of surging in the system that could decrease the efficiency of the design. My thought was that you could counter this pooling by attaching your tails return line to the bottom of the bend so as to drain it back into the boiler.

Any more updates or copper porn?

Edit: I'm not talking about the tails return loop. I realize that that needs to allow for pooling to keep the vapor flowing through the first column.

[Barney Fife]

why you don't get pooling at the bottom of the arm leading up to the second column?

He does; it acts as a little thumper of sorts. This was discussed earlier in the thread.

Didja run 'er yet? Gettin' antsy for a report

[guerrila distilla]

centimeter, i think the idea is that the bend creates a vapour lock to prevent vapour from the boiler taking the easiest route to atmosphere. remember, vapour always seeks the path of least resistance.

[olddog]

I have just finished another run, but without any cooling to the heads return, the whole run was completed in about 4 hours without my cooling water getting too hot, this is the way I will be running it from now on.
Once the boiler reached the boil, with the outer burner and centre burner of my 3 ring stup adjusted to flat out, the forshots and initial heads came off like a torrent and were obviously flooding the spirit plate. I turned off the centre burner and adjusted the outer burner to give me just a slow boil, this is when the magic happened, the output started at 90ABV for the forshots, the heads were at 85ABV, but once it had settled down to a slow boil, the alcometer dropped to 80ABV and stayed there for the entire hearts takeoff,which was about 4 litres from a 20litre wash of 6th gen UJSSM with some feints added.
The output slowed to a dribble at the end of the hearts, so I cranked up the burner to see if I could get any tails as I didnt want to leave a wash with only 80ABV taken off it, there had to be some good tails left.
I managed to run the tails down to 50ABV by cranking both burners again, but is was a supprise how good the tails tasted down to about 60ABV, nice and creamy with lots of flavour after that it got a bit skanky.

So if you are going to build a twin column still, don't bother with a condenser on the heads return, I don't think its neccessary. The heads and tails returns are I think contributing to the fantastic flavour and ABV so I think they are a valid inclusion, but without the cooling.

[manu de hanoi]

Hi Olddog

I'll be straight forward that still doesnt do anything correctly :
1-You now face the classic prob as mentionned several times in this thread of returning the bottom of the 2nd column to the top of the first. The only convenient way to return that liquid is to put the 2nd column on top of the first one. Which will make you column very high.
2-As long as you dont do that, all you have is an expensive "wine heater", that is not even used for reflux, so, basically, it's useless because the power you saved on pre heating the wine is wasted when you return high ABV to the boiler. here is a simpler way to achieve what you are doing, it's also more efficient:

3-another consequence of 1 and 2 is that you dont have reflux in the 1st column, basically without reflux condenser on top of the first column, that first column is neither a stripper nor a distiller, it's a pot still. So, in other words, you can't even tell if your plate system works because there is no condensate going down (apart from what is condensed on the walls of the column)

4- 80%AVB is way too low for you to remove heads. You are left with a, perfumed indeed, but rather toxic uncut product that you'll have to re-distill.

[olddog]

Sorry Manu I dissagree with what you are saying, firstly the design is a scaled down version of a Coffey still adapted for a batch run from a 50lt keg. It is a proven design and was originated over 100 years ago, and is still used in commercial destilleriestoday
.

80%AVB is way too low for you to remove heads. You are left with a, perfumed indeed, but rather toxic uncut product that you'll have to re-distill.

You obviously have not read the post properly, as 80% is the ABV of the spirit takeoff, with the remaining heads and tails being returned to the boiler, the spirits taken are free from any heads and are as clean as I have ever taken even when using my Bokabob, but with the flavour you would get from a potstill.

BTW column 1 is based on Decoys slotted plate design, Decoy provided photo's of this concept working by using a glass column.

OD

[manu de hanoi]

.

80%AVB is way too low for you to remove heads. You are left with a, perfumed indeed, but rather toxic uncut product that you'll have to re-distill.

You obviously have not read the post properly, as 80% is the ABV of the spirit takeoff, with the remaining heads and tails being returned to the boiler, the spirits taken are free from any heads and are as clean as I have ever taken even when using my Bokabob, but with the flavour you would get from a potstill.
OD

You are right I thought the wash was introduced continuously in the column and I missed the latest picture where i can see a distinct product and head output but still , but anyways, guess what happens when heads are in a closed loop ?

I really dont see how it could perform. There is no condenser on top of the 2nd column??!! How do you expect liquid to stay on that plate (if it's plates I see on the 2nd column) ?

BTW column 1 is based on Decoys slotted plate design, Decoy provided photo's of this concept working by using a glass column.

Not seen it but I bet that if it works there must be a reflux condenser on top of that.

Sorry Manu I dissagree with what you are saying, firstly the design is a scaled down version of a Coffey still adapted for a batch run from a 50lt keg. It is a proven design and was originated over 100 years ago, and is still used in commercial destilleriestoday

I do not criticize the coffey design (im building one at this moment). But what's left of coffey design in you build apart from using plates ?

[olddog]

See the similarity.

[manu de hanoi]

you need to understand that for any plate system to work you must have some reflux running from top to bottom. And in a continuous stripper such as the coffey's analyser column, that reflux is replaced by wash.

[Barney Fife]

Manu, while we may not completely understand how OldDog's or my simple plate column stills work, they do. They even accused me of lying about my results, but I wasn't. I just completed 3 runs in 3 days with mine, and the results were very consistent!

There seems to be enough natural reflux to make the plates work as long as we keep the power low enough to not over-power the column(s). I wrote a long tome about how the power pushes the vapors up the column like compressed air would push a ball up a tube, and that is exactly how I'm envisioning it works. Too much air, and the ball flies out of the tube, but get the air just right, and you can float the ball at any part of the tube; same with our columns. I can lower my power to where I can collect from my uppermost plate without ever seeing any product reaching the condenser, and it's a pretty fast flow! Many drips per second(can't count them, and I tried). Pure fores and heads! Nasty, nasty stuff. On my thermometer, the drips at the plate start at around 150f and I won't see hearts from the condenser until it reads about 185f. That's a big range, and if I work the power to keep the column in that range, I collect from the plate, without anything reaching the condenser, and only through natural reflux that I'm getting from having 19" of open column between the upper plate and condenser takeoff. Once that settles down(very few drips from the plate), I can up the power to 750 watts and it's instant hearts, very clean, with no smearing of heads in it. The plates keep collecting throughout the run, but from this point forward, what comes off the plate is blue-ish and oily. My hearts are clean, all the way down to 50% ABV, and from there, I crank it up to 3000 watts and can barely collect a quart of tails before I'm at 25-30% ABV, where I shut 'er down. My plate's collection has consistently been in the 350ml per 5 gallon wash(low abv wash, usually less than 8%)

OldDog's acts like a tall column, without being tall, and instead of collecting and keeping the nasties separate, he returns them for re-distilling: IE: reflux. He's seeing higher ABV than I am, but what we're both seeing is very clean hearts, more of them, and a very clean separation of each volatile compound. Neither of us is shooting for a neutral, by the way, but rather, a high-tech, single-run pot still. And boy howdy, it works, no matter if we have the why of it completely or correctly understood or not.

[manu de hanoi]

OldDog's acts like a tall column, without being tall, and instead of collecting and keeping the nasties separate, he returns them for re-distilling: IE: reflux. He's seeing higher ABV than I am, but what we're both seeing is very clean hearts, more of them, and a very clean separation of each volatile compound. Neither of us is shooting for a neutral, by the way, but rather, a high-tech, single-run pot still. And boy howdy, it works, no matter if we have the why of it completely or correctly understood or not.

-It returns the nasties to the boiler, that's not reflux.
-It's product and "heads" output return the same. Heads are not separated
- The end result could be achieved with more efficient lower tech designs

A product with heads and foreshots can taste rather good, it's just that after a few shots you'll feel like Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked you in the face.

[Barney Fife]

-It returns the nasties to the boiler, that's not reflux.

How is that different than a reflux column that sends everything back down? What he's doing is selecting what he sends back down, no? I do agree about not returning all the nasties back, and I've suggested it numerous times, as that is what really cleaned mine up. But hey, if he's not smelling heads in his hearts(assuming OldDog knows heads, and it sounds like he does), then they're not there. There's nothing about the heads that I'd say tastes good!

In the end, these new designs we're playing with aren't acting like the textbooks say they should, and until y'all build one and learn to drive it, you won't understand and/or believe what we're achieving.

[blanikdog]

... In the end, these new designs we're playing with aren't acting like the textbooks say they should, and until y'all build one and learn to drive it, you won't understand and/or believe what we're achieving.

While I know SFA about reflux stills, I agree 100% with barney here.

blanik

[olddog]

But what's left of coffey design in you build apart from using plates ?

The build is the same as a Coffey still in design, with the exception of the wash pre-heat in column 2. As I will not be operating as a continious still, this is not neccessary.

Not seen it but I bet that if it works there must be a reflux condenser on top of that.

As the Coffey still is not a reflux still, but is a fractionating plate still a top condenser is not neccessary.

1-You now face the classic prob as mentionned several times in this thread of returning the bottom of the 2nd column to the top of the first.

This is not the case, The second column does not feed the top of the first column, quite the reverse, the output of the first column feeds the bottom of the second column, and the feed tube extends about 4" into the second column, to prevent tails pooling in the bottom of the feed tube, but being drained back to the boiler via the tails return at the bottom of the second column.

-It's product and "heads" output return the same. Heads are not separated

The heads exit is at the top of the second column, which are then condensed and returned to the boiler. The spirit takeoff is from the top plate in the second column.

My last test result was to see how the still would behave without cooling water supplied to the second leibig on the heads return. It proved that the extra cooling was not required.
It is inevitable that forshots and heads will appear from the spirit takeoff while the still is getting to the required temperature as it is an open system like a potstill. If a valve was put into the spirit takeoff to prevent this it would just create a bomb, but once temperature is achieved, every thing works as it should.
I have loaded a photo of a Coffey still, perhaps you could point out where the reflux condenser is on the columns.

BTW Manu welcome back from the darkside, I see you have been asking questions regarding plate stills there.

[rednose]

If I only could figger out where to buy these sight glasses.

I have loaded a photo of a Coffey still,.....

[olddog]

You could stack a few of these, and put plates in between. but it would be expensive.

[rednose]

I was thinking about 52mm UV camera lenses but how to seal those???

Have to buy some if exist in SS to make prooves.

[olddog]

Try this site Joe, http://www.apolloflow.co.uk/sightglasses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

OD