Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Distillation methods and improvements.

Moderator: Site Moderator

MashMan

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by MashMan »

Barney Fife wrote:Wait a minute... everything you ran it it were feints? No washes? Yet another variable... Not sure how much more heads/tails/oils/crap you can expect to squeeze from a charge that's already been stripped of most of them.
Barney I can clearly see your enthusiasm and passion in regards to what you do, have done or are about to do. But you have absolutely zero ability to read someone elses posts and be able to take in what they have to say, you then go off half cocked with some wild idea about feints or whatever, when that has not even been mentioned. maybe you should slow up a little bit you might learn something.

I encourage you to go back and have a look at what I had to say.

MM.
Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Barney Fife »

Yup, you're right; I got it the first time, then for whatever reason thought I read it wrong and came back to post it, without re-reading your post.

I don't go over and over the posts; I do read them in their entirety, but only once. I do sincerely wish you luck with your next build, and hope you keep us posted; I believe you're seeking a higher level than I am, and hope you get there and take everyone along for the ride with you and keep sharing your results. I was simply after an improved, yet still simple pot still, to replicate a thumper without actually having a thumper; by all my expectations, this column of mine has surpassed everything I hoped it would do, already, but it's still a simple pot still, and it'll only do so much, and I will only modify it minimally from here. I suspect once I have a controller to completely separate and collect the fores and heads, I'm done refining this one. 2+ quarts of product and only one, maybe, quart of tails/feints from a low ABV rum wash, in one run, makes this amateur 'stiller quite content, and still rather excited. I'll never apologize for sharing this simple contraption, no matter how disappointed you are with yours.

Maybe the tax man will be nice and I'll be able to afford some 2" copper and join you and OldDog on the newer builds and help take those ones further. April might bring more than spring flowers ;)
squidd
Swill Maker
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:49 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by squidd »

Hi Barney,

If you were to build your Barney Column again from scratch what, if anything, would you do differently?

Thanks,

squidd
Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Barney Fife »

Since it does more than I expected it would, I can't think of anything I would change. It's simple to build, simple to run, disassembles easily and quickly for cleaning/storage, and gives me what I was after. I think, as MashMan has seen, there's only so much it can do; to get higher ABV, we'll have to go to bubble plates, but I'm not sure that I want higher ABV now. I used to think I needed higher ABV to get a cleaner product, but what I'm getting now is incredibly clean all the way down to 50%, and when all blended together, my hearts average around 64%, which is right fine for aging right there. I think OldDog's evil twins head is great, and I should be able to run at a higher power for a faster run with it than mine, so it's still something I want to try if I can get my finances in shape(no small task).
User avatar
Husker
retired
Posts: 5031
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:04 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Husker »

squidd wrote:Hi Barney,

If you were to build your Barney Column again from scratch what, if anything, would you do differently?

Thanks,

squidd
Paint it purple

H.

PS, (sorry, I could not help myself, :ewink: :ewink: ).
Hillbilly Rebel: Unless you are one of the people on this site who are legalling distilling, keep a low profile, don't tell, don't sell.
squidd
Swill Maker
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:49 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by squidd »

Thank you Barney.

squidd
Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Barney Fife »

Husk, wrong Barney! I'm rather much more pale ;)
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by HookLine »

Buff Barney

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/90 ... --9306.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
User avatar
Husker
retired
Posts: 5031
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:04 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Husker »

Barney Fife wrote:Husk, wrong Barney! I'm rather much more pale ;)
Hmm, my bad I guess. Hell, the way he dances wobbles, and sings all the time, I figgerd, he was just a wasted shiner, lol

H.
Hillbilly Rebel: Unless you are one of the people on this site who are legalling distilling, keep a low profile, don't tell, don't sell.
Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Barney Fife »

Time for an update....

First, I've found the source of the blue, oily distillate I was collecting all winter, via the upper plate takeoff. It's that nasty feed molasses! Whatever's in that shit was causing it, and even though I ran a few other washes in it during the rum runs and saw the same blue-ish crap(thus thinking the feed molasses wasn't the cause), it must have been enough of the feed's stuff left in there, maybe in the packing, to cause it. Now that I'm done with that shit, the plate collection is much clearer, and doesn't turn to a slight blue-green until deep tails. And while it's slightly oily, still, no where near like it was. I dumped out the jars of the blue stuff I'd saved up(4 quarts), and had to toss the jars, too, as they were coated with a slimy blue gunk. None of the rum I made in this time is anything but crystal clear and doesn't go cloudy when diluted with water, so I'm pretty sure the slant plate column and collecting the upper plate's distillate saved me from drinking some of that crap, but I'm going to run all of what I made(several gallons) back through as a neutral, later, just to be safe. Doesn't taste that good anyhow, but a small run of it as a neutral a couple weeks ago showed the flavor can be completely stripped, and I'd rather not have a reminder of what a waste of time and money that feed 'lasses was.

Going forward! Back to making good rum, I'm again seeing 2 quarts of clean hearts in one run if I run the rig at 750 watts, after doing the heads collection dance with the power cord; yes, I still haven't built a controller, but maybe tomorrow. As it is, I have this down to a near science anyhow, so the controller will only make it simpler. Nothing changed here, and still happy with what I'm seeing, though I'm ready for an "enhancement" session ;)

Next run was adding a gallon of the winter's 'feed' rum hearts to the hot dunder in the boiler right after I was done with a "good rum" run, to see if I could lose the nasty flavor and induce the goodness of a fancy molasses wash to it, while cleaning it up some at the same time. First thing that had me scratching my head was that when the column temperature came up, I didn't get anything but maybe a drop every 4-5 seconds from the plate collection! WTF? So I tap on the valve with a wrench, make sure everything's open, etc.. Still doing the heads collection dance with the power cord, I slowly let the temps come up a bit more, and still, barely a drop here and there. After 15 minutes of this, I just plugged it in and let it go, and when the column hit 180-182, sure as clockwork, I begin to see a steady, thin stream from the liebig, but still only a drop every 4-5 seconds from the plate. And the column quickly rose to about 190, and stayed right there 'til near the end of the run, where it quickly climbed past 200. Then it hits me! I can't collect heads, because there aren't enough in the boiler to collect! These were very clean hearts I added to the boiler, and sure enough, we can't separate what's already been separated. if I had any doubts that the hearts I was collecting from this rig were as clean as my nose thought they were, now I am sure! But, other than showing that the separate heads collection does indeed work very well, this was a wasted effort because the nasty rum wasn't any better.

On the next run, I packed the bottom of the column, below all the plates, added my spiral condenser, and ran it as a BOK to make a neutral. Loaded 1-1/2 gals. of the nasty rum, diluted to around 30%, and cleaned that rum right up with a good bit of refluxing. Despite the short column and my lack of patience with high reflux runs(IE: I collect pretty quickly and don't reflux that much), I still collected the "neutral" hearts at 88% ABV, running a quart an hour(give or take). Not quite world-class neutral, but it'll be a good diluting neutral, I hope.

After this one, with a good rum ready to go, I left the packing in the column, yanked the spiral and reinstalled the liebig, and ran as usual, but this time I tried to push more power to see what would happen. Nothing happened. I did the heads dance as usual, then let 'er go at 3000 watts, my pot still power of choice. What surprised me was that I no longer was getting anything at all from the plate, where at 750 watts, even when in the hearts run, I would still see a steady drip, especially in the early hearts, but here, nothing. And sure enough, the first quart was head heavy. Sure enough; with too much power pushing the vapors, the plates do nothing at all. I had hoped the packing would have allowed me to run more power, but if anything, it hurt. So at this point, I just poured-on the power and did a strip run and collected it all. Right after the run, when I dismantled the column, when I tipped it over to drain the plates, nothing came out. Bone dry! The inside of the column was dry. I usually saw about a couple cups' worth of distillate that the plates were holding, but at the high power of this run, nothing, but nothing stayed in the plates! What I "learned" here is what I preached earlier, and that is that this setup is very sensitive to power input. Find the sweet spot, and it rewards me with good single-run rum, but miss the sweet spot, and it's nothing more than a glorified pot still, much like others have complained about here.

So, where to from here? Well, I want to run it with more power, to speed things along. As it is, it's still faster than doing strip runs followed by a spirit run, and it is cleaner than the spirit run in pot still mode(at 3000 watts). It's successful, and if you take the time to find the sweet spot with the power, it can be replicated, and is a nice, simple rig that does what I had hoped it would. But now I'm getting antsy to see what else we can do to get similar results but with quicker collection, no doubt fueled by OldDog and LW's recent builds :) Gonna keep my nose down and see if I can't score me some copper this summer.

enjoy!
docdave
Bootlegger
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by docdave »

OD, I was wondering if you put the 3 plates alternating about 6 inches apart you get the effect of bubble caps in a petroleum column, take advantage of different bp's in the volatiles by creating pooling of distillate at different heights in the column. OR should the plates be alternating or close together to create cascading pools of distillate. This has got me thinking in a thousand different directions.

DocDave
Massassi
Bootlegger
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:33 pm
Location: Canadian South Pacific

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Massassi »

this is a really interesting read. did anything ever come of the Barney Column? was it given up on? is it still in use?
hellbilly007
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:59 am
Location: Never one place very long

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by hellbilly007 »

Massassi, Barney fife hasn't logged on here in quite some time. I'm pretty sure he's inactive anymore
Massassi
Bootlegger
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:33 pm
Location: Canadian South Pacific

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Massassi »

yeah I thought so, but I wasn't sure if others were using it too.

I feel like I might try to make one up and see what it does and that the HETP equivalency is as well. I just need to see if I can scrounge up some copper
User avatar
bcook608
Rumrunner
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:54 pm
Location: Midwest, USA

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by bcook608 »

Man, I got all excited over this post and didn't notice that it went dead 12 years ago!
Has anyone experimented further with this design or has everyone come to the conclusion that bubble plates are the way to go?
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by LWTCS »

I dont think anyone fooled with Barney's idea.
By the time old dog had unveiled his plated column everyone was more or less star struck and gravitated to what old dog was posting about.
Barney's observations were note worthy but really couldn't compare to Mike's design aesthetic or the operating range.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
bcook608
Rumrunner
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:54 pm
Location: Midwest, USA

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by bcook608 »

Ok, I'll take a closer look at his design. Thanks :)
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by LWTCS »

bcook608 wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:52 am Ok, I'll take a closer look at his design. Thanks :)
As I recall, it was a column with an array of slant plates that did not allow for any vapor to mingle with the liquid bed on the slant plate.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7657
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Yummyrum »

That’s how I recall it too Larry . I also recall Olddog trying some thing similar in his “Twins “ column build … maybe it was the Frankensien or similar .

Either way , it was not an award winning design IIRC .

However , maybe Barneys design might have been better off utilised as a continuous stripper .
fzbwfk9r
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 4:51 pm
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle of God's country. Saskatchewan!

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by fzbwfk9r »

I had posted elsewhere that I recently came across Bokakob's drawings, and one of them was similar to BF's column except the slant plates were designed to force vapour through the liquid bed, 2 plates working in concert.

When I saw this, I had two thoughts.... ok, three

1) simple. I like simple designs that work well. I have more time than money, and often find complexity adds nothing to a final outcome

2) very similar to a small thumper, like the thump tower, or any form of bubble plates but with very limited ability to create smaller bubbles. (one could kerf the upper plate to create a diffuser)

3) there is no downcomer in Bokakob's design, flooding could become an issue. One could solder in a downcomer into the top plate of each section... or use an external downcomer.
BUT, is one really needed?
There is conflicting information on that issue with other designs, and I have yet to find definitive answers.
ex: ProCap style bubblers have the downcomer above the height of the riser, yet they seem to work, but when discussion revolves around building your own, it is often commented you shall have the riser ABOVE the height of the downcomer otherwise fluid will gravity feed back over the riser. I have not found where someone has dis/proven that either way.
IF it will gravity feed past the vapour pressure, then one is not needed. But how much liquid bed is required to defeat that pressure?
IF it won't, then a downcomer IS required.

4) that is a heck of a lot of soldering!!!
(I guess that's four??)

to date, I have never seen anyone actually build one this way, although it has been mentioned.
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Setsumi »

For a thumper or a plate to work you need a boiling action to create a phase change. I do not see how this can happen in BF' colomn.

Edit, BF did see a increase in ABV. I believe this is from the reflux condenser and not plate effect.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by LWTCS »

Setsumi wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 pm For a thumper or a plate to work you need a boiling action to create a phase change. I do not see how this can happen in BF' colomn.

Edit, BF did see a increase in ABV. I believe this is from the reflux condenser and not plate effect.

Precisely.
Barney took some knocks for his assertions.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Darkside
Novice
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:01 am

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Darkside »

Wow, that thread was an intense read. And now all I’m left with is the original question, is there a simple yet effective 2” plate column?

Is there a 2” design that would avoid a stripping run and produce a good product ?
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Simple, yet effective 2" plate column

Post by Sporacle »

viewtopic.php?p=7042836#p7042836

That's a link that explains the pros and cons of packing vs plates vs diameter.

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid a stripping run?

I did the maths on running my still in pot mode
strip and spirit run
1.5 run
One and done
The product return vs time was pretty similar

Maybe have a look at a detuned reflux setup
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
Post Reply