Baking Soda

[Dnderhead]

Just tip it in I never had Any problems

[darel]

I notice that you add carbonate to 40%. My still makes 95%. Do i want to cut it to 40%? Are there any advantages/ disadvantages to having the higher percent? Would adding bicarbonate do anything different than carbonate at this strength? I know that the two are water soluble and probably wouldn't dissolve with all that alcohol. Would that be a problem as well?

[darel]

When buying sodium carbonate do I want soda ash? And which works better, adding carbonate in low wines letting it sit for a few days followed by distilling? Or can I add it and run the still immediatly? Would it hurt to do both? Thanks again.

[manu de hanoi]

As for quantity i'd say your litmus paper should be green (pH 7).

I use sodium hydroxyde. Handling is a bit dangerous.....
I pour it very slowly into the wash. If dumped to quickly it will smell like fish (NH4 evap or something...)

[schnell]

add the base with water (ie 40% better than 95%)

the reason is that you are promoting a hydrolysis reaction - which by definition consumes water.

if i use bicarb, i'd dilute the high wines with extra water to provide this as a reactant.

i prefer weaker base for safety reasons. you'll dissolve your own flesh by getting a strong base on it, which is inevitable when sloshing things around, wiping up the counter, etc. AND because strong base is very difficult to wash off of yourself. The recommended rinse for an NaOH exposure for example is a fifteen minute rinse with water.

I've peeled the flesh off my hands even after washing them with soap and water from even small laboratory contaminations. The pH of a strong hydroxide soln is in the 13-14 range. Ouch! Before it burns you'll notice a slippery sensation if you rub your fingers together. In this case rinse, Rinse, RINSE, then repeat.

[Oaty]

Yes. I have done it with and without. With is much better.

Bicarb is cheap.

Sodium carbonate works even better. Get it from pool shops (or Bunnings) as pH raiser. It is much more powerful than bicarb, so it only needs one teaspoon per litre, and you don't have to wait, you can distill straight away.

Sodium carbonate is also relatively cheap.

Sodium Carbonate is also available in the detergent aisle at the grocery. Added to water it helps the cleaning action of washing detergents in hard water. Heard of 20 Mule Team? I think ARM & HAMMER also sells it.

[HookLine]

Sodium Carbonate is also available in the detergent aisle at the grocery. Added to water it helps the cleaning action of washing detergents in hard water. Heard of 20 Mule Team? I think ARM & HAMMER also sells it.

That is true. But it does pay to be careful with the stuff in the detergent section, I recall somebody saying that it sometimes has other ingredients in it besides sodium carbonate. Just check on the packet first.

[Rummeriffic]

Hey guys, I've been looking at this thread and wondering a few things......
I understand what the Soduim carb or bi-carb is doing, would the addition of NaCl to the low wines not accomplish the same thing, albeit with the production of Chlorine and Nitrogen? (or am I just waaaay wrong?) Isn't the ionic attraction similiar, like this:

NaCl ---> Na+ , Cl-
or:
NaHCO3 ---> Na+ , HCO3-

The reason I ask is on the main site there is a section about adding salt and/or sodium carb or bicarbonate to the low wines.
I generally just single run through my potstill, so I have no use for the above process. The last time around though I re-ran a bunch of low wines (mostly heads and tails from previous batches). I use a 5 gal potstill and ran 4 gals. of low wines diluted to 40% with water and added about 3-4 tablespoons of non-iodized salt before firing up.
Now I don't have a whole lot of experience with double distilling, but I noticed that the change from hearts to tails was Very sharp on this run, unlike the gradual changeover that occurs during my "stripping" runs.
I know there are a lot of variables, but generally, with a potstill does the change from hearts to tails occur much faster on a spirit run than it would on a "stripping" run? If not, would it have been the addition of the NaCl to the low wines that made the changeover that much sharper?

Thoughts, opinions, flames?

Thanks guys,
Rummer

[blue]

I dont use carbon anymore.I have in the past,but I feel that if you have to use carbon to clean it up,You need to change your ferment to something cleaner,then you can forget the carbon.I dont use the bicarb unless my neutrals have too much flavors,and I dont use very much of it.
I have been making vodka with a potstill,running once with a large forshot cut,and collecting to 40%,then when I have made 4 or 5 stripping runs,I potstill it a 2nd time with hard cuts,and keep only the hearts for the vodka.It seems to have a better flavor than the refluxed stuff,and blows away the commercial stuff by miles.It almost taste like water,until the end,and the flavors on the end are all pleasent.

So your first runs are at 40%, do you add water before you run 4 o 5 of these through your potstill? What is your output like from the second potstill run? Do you dilute with water to ~40% for your vodka? What do you think makes it better tasting than a refluxed run? what is it that is carried over from the low wines that makes it good?

thanks in advance.

[StabbyJoe]

Not 100% on this, but I would think that bicarb or carb would be way better than NaCl... I was under the impression that part of the reason was to make the pH closer to 7, but NaCl is NEUTRAL salt made of a strong base (NaOH) and a strong acid (HCl)... So it wouldn't do so much?
I'm sure there's more to it than that... but it wouldn't dramatically effect the pH as bicarb might... Could be wrong. Haven't read quite as much on neutrals as I have on rums and whiskeys... mostly because I will probably only make neutrals from mistakes rather than on purpose ^__^

[BW Redneck]

I think that one of the main reasons that bicarb is preferred to salt is that using salt can free up chlorine which attacks stainless steel, causing pitting.

I might just be babbling some chemistry bullshit here, but I think that I read it somewhere on here. I can't really say anything from experience as I've never tried to run a neutral before.

[Dnderhead]

Salts rises the boiling point of the water so it is easier to distill /separate the alcohol from the the water (do not use iodized)
sodium bicarb neutralizes the acids so less heads/tales (cation do not use to much you will end up with green alcohol)

[schnell]

sodium bicarbonate is used to provide a base. sodium chloride is not.

a base is used to hydrolyze the esters, then neutralize the resulting organic (read carboxylic) acids. since this is a hydrolysis reaction water helps the process along.

don't add base to wash or you'll free up ammonia and get the blue distillate problem. only add it to low wines, which no longer have proteins, etc.

many of the congeners are esters. the most common being ethyl acetate, which is a low boiler and major component of heads. it also forms a binary azeotrope with ethanol that has a BP below that of the ethanol/water azeotrope - that's a major reason why you discard heads.

high organic acid content will lead to a high ester content when in alcohol with acidic conditions (fisher esterification). this baking soda trick gets rid of both esters (by hydrolysis) and acids (by ion pairing/salting).

of course I wouldn't recommend this for whiskey, rum, brandy, or and other flavored spirit. but it's great for making neutrals for other projects or vodkas.

salt (nacl) won't do anything for you but cost money and waste effort...

[JTabroad]

Hi,
ive just added 2 teaspoons of BiCarb and a little dash of citric acid to a strippin run of neutral from my potstill, now it smells of Ammonia oooops, do you think this will be safe to redistill or should i stay safe and use it as a cleaning solution ?
on the other hand i could always perm my girlfriends hair with it..

Thanks in advance...

[JTabroad]

Just diluted my ammonia smelling stripping run , and yep it still smells of ammonia , not gonna taste it but stay safe and throw it away, luckily it was only an experimental 4 litre run . Reasons for ammonia ? maybe mixing it with citric acid , or too much heads , or maybe i didn't let my neutral mash clear enough before distilling .
I will try again with bicarb but i will wait until ive done a strip run , then a cuts run , then add the bicarb - dilute and do another distilling cuts run.

[StabbyJoe]

I heard of someone using either carbonate or bicarb... don't remember which... that said if they chucked the whole lot in at once you'd get an ammonia smell. But I wouldn't think so with 2 tsp... try sprinkling it evenly over the top next time?
Not sure whether it actually needs tossing of if the distillation will clear it up...

Just looked up the BP... ammonia in solution has a BP of 72*C approx in solution... so that'll come out with heads easily. Hearts might not be quite as clean as otherwise, but not much to worry about as far as I can think of...

I'm interested to hear from someone who's run with ammonia in the low wines before... But I think I have it right.

[guerrila distilla]

jt, looking over some other threads on the forum, it seems that the bicarb reacts with the yeast cells in the mash to produce the ammonia. these people recommended throwing the wash away or distilling it for the work shop only. the bicarb should be added after the stripping run when there are no yeast cells/unfermented sugars and other parts of the mash that stay in the boiler.

a few people swear by using bicarb in their low wines and there are also the few who disagree. the best thing to do is try it for yourself and see if you notice the difference. if you add it after the first distillation, it seems it can do no harm to your product so give it a go. just remember not to add it to your mash.

hope this helps.

guerrila distilla

[ibfestus]

I have approximately 8-9 liters of low wines stripped from Gerber wash. I also have about 45 liters of Wineos sugar wash clearing and it should be ready by next weekend. I have a 15.5 gal pot still and my goal is for a totally neutral spirit that I will dilute to 50% ABV. Here are my questions:

1. When I strip Wineos wash, should I do it all at once or break it up into 2 runs?

2. Would you strip the sugar wash and add it to the Gerber low wines and run them all in a single spirit run or keep them separate?

3. I was intending to add 50% water to the low wines before the spirit run. Does the 1 Tbsp bicarb per gallon include the added water or just the low wines?

[SaltUbar]

Hi ibfstus,
I am running wino’s sugar wash and am doing 55 Lt ferments. I have noticed that I have to siphon after yeast stops working then leave a week to settle. This ends up being very clear. This I strip in a 60 Lt boiler all in one run and end up with about 10-12 Lt of low wines with an ABV from 50% down to about 15%

I use the same 60 Lt boiler to do the spirit run which I use a 1.5 m copper mesh packed column. The problem I have is that 10Lt of low wins is not enough to cover the element in my boiler.

The solution I use is to add another 10Lt of water to my low wines . I add 1 tsp Bicarb Soda per Lt of low wines just before I put the low wines in the boiler. So for me I add 10 tsp of bicarb.

Regards Ubar

[wildvodka]

Okay, let me get this straight - I can get a cleaner vodka if I add either Bi-Carb or Sod-Carb in the wash, but I get the "amonia" affect if I do not do a cut run first... I use a reflux colunm and have been told that I do not need a cut run... So if I do not need a cut run, can I still use B-Carb or Sod-Carb and will it make my vodka better... If I can't, and I do not want to do a cut run, what can I use to increase the quality?

[Dnderhead]

you cant add baking soda to the wash, you add it to the "low wines" that is after it has been distilled once.
here is your choices
make a better wash
make better cuts
run slower
run twice
air out and age

at the last resort carbon filter (filtering is expensive and takes a long time)

[wildvodka]

Thanks.
I am new to this and just trying to make the best vodka I can. The last run I did turned out to have a bite to it even after carbon filtering... I think I might have not cut it enough... Is it true that I should be only using the run that is produced over 80c to avoid this?

[Dnderhead]

being new why don't you run it off in small jars let sit awhile then sort it out. and no ethanol evaporates at 78.3c any thing you git before that discard,
but its not quite that a sharp line between heads and harts.

[SaltUbar]

Hi Wildvodka,

My understanding is (and I would love some more experienced folks to confirm this)

that you can use any of the sodium compounds (e.g. Sodium Bi-carbonate etc) in your wash (i.e. the liquid that you ferment) but with the following warning. If the Ph of your wash (i.e. before you do the stripping run) or your low wines (i.e. after you do the stripping run) is greater than 7 the chemical reaction will form ammonia and will turn your distillate blue.

For this reason most folks use Calcium Carbonate during the fermentation to raise the ph to keep it between 4 and 5 (i.e. the range the yeast likes)

Regards Ubar

[guerrila distilla]

saltubar, stick to using baking soda in your low wines and you should be fine. even if you're right about the ph thing, there are for more chemicals than you would think in a wash. any one of these could cause a reaction.

wildvodka, are you aware of methanol? it's a lovely optic nerve poison which can blind you at best, kill you at worst. it's usually the first thing to come out of your still, so most people recommend throwing away the first 200-300ml, some people more. then you'll get the heads. separate this, and throw it in with you're next run. then comes the hearts. this is the good stuff. finally, the tails will come through. it's pretty easy to tell when the tails arrive, as the neutral smell and taste will be replaced by a wet cardboard type smell. again, seperate the tails, and throw it back into your next run. the idea is not to let the tails contaminate the hearts section. you do this by collecting in small pots, then adding them to the hearts jar after a good sniff and taste. if you detect any hint of tails, dont add it to the hearts jar, keep it separate for the next run.

i'd really look over the parent site and the forum here a lot more, at least until you get a grasp of the basics.

[dStill]

I don;t do a stripping run, just run the wash through as my spirit run saves time and propane the spirit (neutral) i get is great quality and quite pure at about 95%

My Question is this: Can I still use bicarb in my wash as i distill or will it react badly with all the other stuff in my wash?

[HookLine]

My Question is this: Can I still use bicarb in my wash as i distill or will it react badly with all the other stuff in my wash?

Only use carb/bicarb on low wines (strippings), not on a wash. Always make sure the wash is acidic when it goes into the boiler to avoid any ammonia related problems during the low wines run. (It should be naturally acidic at the end of the ferment.)

[Zxlork]

Ok so I have about 3.5 gallons of 40%abv stripped vodka run. That means about 14 tablespoons of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate). There are 16 tablespoons in a cup so I just added 1/2 a cup to be on the safe side. Now my crystal clear 40% stripped vodka is now a light blue color...is this normal? Also is it safe to do my final spirit run in a pot still with it like this? I have another 3.5 gallons of the same stuff that I am going to add it to but don't want to ruin both batches if in fact this is what happened.

My understanding is if it's blue it can make amonia...so does this mean I just need to add lime juice or something of the sort to get it acidic before I do my final spirit run? Will it change back to clear once it's no longer basic?

A couple of things...I don't have PH paper so i have no clue if it's acidic or basic...also It does not smell at all like amonia....I have never smelled it but it's my understanding that it's a very over powering smell...would I be able to detect it if I was tasting the liquid?

[myles]

Just wanted to add in to this. I use bicarb, but I only use it on feints that are destined for the reflux column.

Some time back I opened a demijon of what had been really nasty heads, that I had bicarbed a few months previously (i had forgotten about it) and most of the heads smell had gone.

Fluke? Don't know. Anyone else using bicarb and long term storage to clean up heads?

[marc83]

I had a demijohn that was half full of not so nice smelling spirit,and had it sitting under my bench,forgot about it as you do,after a tidy up,opened it up,took a sniff,hmmm,no smell at all,even got the wife to take a whiff of it,and same,nothing,rubbed some between my fingers,yep shes alcohol alright .Tested it with the alcometer,was 70%ABV..
So maybe not a fluke.Maybe the months you had left it there.
Anyone else?