What to do with Cider?

[Braz]

I have four gallons of unpasturized apple cider and I think I'd like to try to make an apple brandy with it. I've never done any kind of fruit wash so I am in virgin territory for me. I have all bran vodka down pat so I think it is time to try something new.

A few questions come to mind, though. Maybe more than a few...

Should I put all four gallons in one 5 Gal. fermenter, pitch yeast and hope? Or should I split the cider between two fermenters and add water and some sugar to bring up the volume and alcohol potential?

Is bakers yeast OK for this purpose?

Will it need additional nutrients (DAP) or is there enough in the cider itself to keep the yeasties fat and happy.

My "plan" is to run it in the pot still, a strip run followed by a slow spirit run. Maybe a second spirit run after that. Then age with some oak. I searched here for "apple brandy" learned a few valuable things along the way. Apparently apples produce a lot of heads. That could be a challenge to my cut making skills especially since my pot still experience is so far limited to stripping runs.

I eagerly await your sage advice. In the meanwhile, I have a vodka run awaiting.

[blanikdog]

Braz, I'm a little confused as you are referring to 'unpasturized apple cider' when I think you mean apple juice or you wouldn't be thinking of fermenting it.

Assuming that you do mean juice when I made cider as a 25 year old youngster I simply got the juice, added some sodium met and a day later tossed in some GP wine yeast and it worked fine.

However these days I would maybe reconsider the sodium met and would be more choosy with my yeast and go for ec1118, and I'd add some DAP. I guess that bakers yeast would do the job too.

I wouldn't do a strip run first, just one slow run in the pot still but that's just me.

[Braz]

Braz, I'm a little confused as you are referring to 'unpasturized apple cider' when I think you mean apple juice or you wouldn't be thinking of fermenting it.

Thanks Blanik. Around here (USA) "cider" is the term used for apple juice that is 100% juice from squeezing apples. "Apple juice" generally means some commercially made stuff that is probably made from apple concentrate and a lot of water. Pretty weak stuff, really. "Hard cider" refers to cider that has been fermented. To my mind anyway. So what I have is 100% unfermented apple juice.

I actually thought EC1118 might be a better choice too but I can only get it mail order, which is why I asked about bakers yeast. I've got till next weekend before I start this so I'll probably order some. Any idea how much EC1118 to pitch per Gallon of wash?

Like I said, this is new territory for me.

[MuleKicker]

better hurry, that unpasturized cider will start fermenting on its own. keep it cold.

[goose eye]

dont be splitin in to. get bout 4 lbs of suger an put it in a 1/2 gal jug fill rest up
with hot water an melt. add it to your cider. mite wanna add fert to it if you planin on havein
it for holidays.


mostly this years was last years
so im tole

[blanikdog]

As MK said braz, get some yeast into it before it starts fermenting or some sodium met to kill the wild yeast, but either way you need to get it going fast.

I often wondered what hard cider is. Now I know. thanks

[Braz]

Thanks for the advice folks. Yesterday I put it in a 5 Gal. fermenter and added 4 LB of sugar dissolved in a gallon of hot water to make up a 5 Gal. wash. I also added 1.5 tsp of DAP for added nutrient and some citric acid to get the PH down to around 5. Initial SG is 1.072 which, if it ferments out, should yield around 10% alcohol.

I used bakers yeast 'cause that is what I have and didn't want to wait to get EC1118 by mail. With sugar washes I usually just throw a bunch (like 2/3 cup) of dry yeast on top and let it fend for itself but this time I decided to follow wine making practice and rehydrate the yeast first. Following instructions I found on some wine making site I only used 1 Tbsp. of yeast. I pitched the yeast and put it under the airlock. After a couple hours it was starting to produce bubbles but I haven't gone out to check it this morning.

Keeping my fingers crossed...

[myles]

It is strange the way different folks use the same terms to mean different things. I have always thought of 'hard cider' as fermented cider that has subsequently been fortified by freeze distilation.

If you are going to ferment it to drink then I would say go for at least 12%. I sometimes with good juice and carefull handling get it to 16% - but its only worth it with your best tasting juice.

For fermenting to distill then probably go for 8% and no higher than 10%. I have had some nasty flavours with distilling stronger washes. I assume it is because the yeast has been well and trully stressed by fermenting in a high alcohol environment.

[Dnderhead]

I distinguish the difference as
sweet cider-apple juice
hard cider - apple juice that has been fermented
apple wine-apple juice that has sugar or other added then fermented
apple jack- hard cider that has been fermented,then freeze distilled
apple schnapps-hard apple cider that has been distilled(left in white)
apple brandy- hard apple cider that has been distilled and aged in/on wood.
these are "blurred" here in US as many fruits are added to a neutral then redistilled.

[Braz]

That's great, Dunder. Should be a law requiring proper usage of terms. There is even a commercial distillery making apple brandy and marketing it as apple jack.

My goal for this experiment is apple brandy, to be aged in glass with some white oak (charred or toasted?) But of course I will have to try some white.

24 hours after pitching the yeast it is popping the airlock nicely and has a nice foam cap. And the stillhouse smells absolutely lovely. So far I am a happy boy.

[goose eye]

least ways round here you call it schnapps an folks gonna look at you like you touched

so im tole

[LWTCS]

least ways round here you call it schnapps an folks gonna look at you like you touched

Haa

Long as its good. Touched or not.

[blanikdog]

Thank you dunder. Dunno where we'd be without you watching over us.

[Dnderhead]

Schnaps is clear, colorless, and has a light fruit flavor.[3] It is distilled from fermented fruit must, is bottled with no added sugar, and normally contains about 40% ABV (80 proof). Its appearance and taste are the same as that of eau de vie, but this French term is seldom used in German-speaking countries. In Austria, Switzerland, and southern Germany, these beverages are commonly called Obstler or Obstbrand (from the German Obst).

[goose eye]

ole boys aint never had no luck at getin 80 proof to hold a bead

so im tole

[goose eye]

dunder now what do it say bout american schnaps

so im tole

[Dnderhead]

most but not all American schnapps as well as america fruit brandy ,are flavored after , the difference is that American schnapps they use grain
alcohol as a base,not aged or aged glass/stainless and American brandy they use grape brandy as a base some times aged in wood others they use caramel and fake it.both can/is sweetened.

[Braz]

UPDATE (quoting myself here just so folks don't have to ask, "what the hell is he talking about.")

Thanks for the advice folks. Yesterday I put it in a 5 Gal. fermenter and added 4 LB of sugar dissolved in a gallon of hot water to make up a 5 Gal. wash. I also added 1.5 tsp of DAP for added nutrient and some citric acid to get the PH down to around 5. Initial SG is 1.072 which, if it ferments out, should yield around 10% alcohol.

I used bakers yeast 'cause that is what I have and didn't want to wait to get EC1118 by mail. With sugar washes I usually just throw a bunch (like 2/3 cup) of dry yeast on top and let it fend for itself but this time I decided to follow wine making practice and rehydrate the yeast first. Following instructions I found on some wine making site I only used 1 Tbsp. of yeast. I pitched the yeast and put it under the airlock.

This is working out quite nicely, so far. After only five days the SG is down to .998 and it might be done. Tastes pretty good, tart, fizzy, with just a tiny bit of appley finish. I am going to give it one more day then rack it into another container and put it in the fridge. I won't get a chance to run it till next weekend 'cause this weekend I'm working on my gin experiment.

[LWTCS]

I won't get a chance to run it till next weekend 'cause this weekend I'm working on my gin experiment.

Likker Geek

[JethroBodine]

Too late now, but let's not forget the wonderful health benefits of Apple Pie Pantie Dropper! Always a favorite this time of year .

[NGICA]

Sounds exciting. I've been meaning to try making this. Will probably be one of the first things I make once I get a still togetther.

[Braz]

Update:

I ran my cider wash last weekend. I started with 20 qt (19 L) at 9.8% and ran it slow through the pot still. It started coming off at 60% and I ran it down to 28%. Collected 3.3L total. Let it air overnight and then made the cuts. This was hard. I don't have the skill/art of making cuts very well refined. After foreshots I ended up taking 400ml off the front as heads and 1L off the back as tails. The last 400ml were obviously oily. In all I netted out 1.7L of hearts at 50%.

This has a really nice flavor even though it is a little sharp without any age on it. I put it down with a stick of toasted white oak in it and will let it age as long as I can keep my hands off it. Wife, whose sense of taste is much more sensitive than mine, approves of it and says she can taste the promise of a nice brandy in it.

So then I went out and got another 8 gallons of cider so I can make some more.

As always, I'm happy to hear any suggestions.

[LWTCS]

Wife, whose sense of taste is much more sensitive than mine, approves of it and says she can taste the promise of a nice brandy in it.

So then I went out and got another 8 gallons of cider so I can make some more.

As always, I'm happy to hear any suggestions.

Happy wife, happy life.

[NGICA]

Braz,

do you plan on putting that on some oak at all? let us know, sounds tasty

[Braz]

Braz,

do you plan on putting that on some oak at all? let us know, sounds tasty

Yes, it is aging on some toasted white oak. Turning a nice amber color already. I am going to do my best to let it age for quite a while but of course I will have to sample it occasionally.

[pistachio_nut]

Well this is good news, I'm ready to try making some of this.

I have a couple gallons of apfelwein going right now, but Costco has the right kind of AJ for $3/gallon, so a 15 gallon batch would run me $45 plus $30 for 15 pounds of dark brown sugar, plus this an that for another $15... $90 for 2.25 gallons of product, of which less than a gallon will be hearts. That's $22.50 a bottle for the good stuff, consider the heads and tails to be waste. I've never had it, is it worth the money? Would you buy it at that price?

If it's that good I'm all over it.

I think I'd like to make it just because it's a traditional American hard liquor. Our heritage is one reason I decided to build a Tennessee flute in the first place.

[Braz]

pistacio_nut,

Why dark brown sugar?

Here's what I did for my second cider wash. This is for a five gallon (20L) wash (scale as needed).
4 Gal cider - pour into fermenter

Invert 4# of granulated white sugar.
Pour into fermenter.
Add backset (or water) to the 20L mark.
Add 1 tsp DAP.
Check and adjust Ph to around 5.
Aerate well.

Hydrate 8g of EC-1118 yeast.
Stir into wash, close and airlock.

I made two batches and ran them in my pot still twice (strip run and then a spirit run). After cuts I got about 1.25 Gallons at 55%. (Without doing the math I'd guess that's around 2 gallons at 80 proof.) I put this in glass with some lightly charred oak, a handfull of raisins and about 4 tsp of maple syrup. After about four weeks I pulled the oak and raisins out, took a pint and diluted it to 80 proof for drinking now while the rest ages some more. I think is tastes pretty damn good, brandy like.

I had not considered cost, but thinking about it now I figure I've got around $40 in it, not counting propane. It is easily worth it, considering that my time is valueless. Hell, it's a hobby, right?

[Odin]

Apple brandy is made from cider not from aplle wine. So don't put sugar and water in it! Just ferment is as one batch, without adding anything but yeast. What yeast? Certainly no baker's yeast. There is a special cider yeast around, you might want to use. Heared some good things about cider making with champagne yeast as well.

The fermentation should be slow and relatively cold. No more than 18 to 19 degrees centigrade. You will gat to a 7 to 7,5% alcohol cider.

Using a pot still is the only way to keep the taste. Make a first run, where you only take out the first 100 ml to throw away. Everything else stays in. Continu distilling until you reach the point where the outcome is as strong as the 7 or 8% you started with.

In the second run (I guess: one third, so some 1.3 gallons in other words), gett rid of foreshots (first 30 ml) and seperate heads, harts and tails seperately. Do you wish to drink your apple brandy right away, just keep the harts. Do you want to oak and age (make Calvados) and let it rest for at least a year, than put in some heads and some more tails. They will help develop a more complex taste, when you are able to let the drink rest on oak for a time.

See ya,
Odin.

[JethroBodine]

Odin, What's your favorite yeast for apple cider? We get cider year round here and I've been meaning to try differant yeasts and am looking for a place to start.

[mjstorm]

Agree with Odin.
But that's what he writes is ideal.
And apples are special sorts for cider and Calvados.
Wild yeast Fermentation is just saving money. Special
yeasts gives a good quality cider and less bad smell
in calvados. For full push-ups juice apples using difuzionn method.
This means a use of water and sugar to correction.
In addition the acidity of the wort also need to adjust.