small diameter plate or thumper tower?

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small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

I've been reading on the forums about some of the builds people are doing. I'm impressed with the flutes , but can't afford / no room for a 4" beauty right now, but I like the concept. I've been looking to see if anyone has done any roughly 2" builds with bubble plates and saw MashMans "Simple, yet effective 2" plate column", and LWTCS "Thump Tower Concept" and got an Idea, but i do not have the experience to determine if it would work or not. SO to flaunt my ingorance, I present the Fibonacci Sill concept.

I'm thinking that if one made the ration of the your main pipe and the outer pipe of the right relationship so that it doesn't choak the smaller diameter pipe, you might be able to build a small diameter "perforated plate / thumper column" or however you may better describe it. for simplicity i'll go with 1" diameter pipe [but mapped out a 1.5 and 2" concept too]
In short If a 1" pipe went to 1.5 in pipe as shown below, and used a series of holes such that the total area equaled the area of the smaller diameter pipe, my hypothesis is that you could run a small fractioning column at home on a stove with corresponding less wattage.
small sketch
small sketch
The pipe just above the holes would be capped and the ratio for the holes in a 1in pipe would be 21(1/4 in holes), 13 (5/8), 9(3/8), 7(7/16), 5(1/2), 4(9/16) [ the hole diameter depends on the watts delivered to the boiler and the mass of water above them right? That is the type of math i'm skipping for now]

This above ratio (I also figured it out for 1.5", and 2" pipes) would allow the diameter of the pipe to never go smaller than the diameter of the column, so i "might" be able to run it on my stove in the apartment with a reflux lm/vm head and condenser like a tiny flute.
There is another ration too. If the smaller pipe is 1", then the other sized would be 1.5. ( π((1.5)/2)^2 - π(1/2)^2 = roughly π(1/2)^2 for pipe bubbling part) If using a 1.5 for the smaller, 2" for larger and if 2" smaller than 3" larger.
There also would be a return to the boiler from the bottom thumper / plate.

If each pod type section was kept to under 8 inches then I could fit 4 plates, have it be 32in tall, fit a condenser for reflux and then my 1ft water jacketed condenser.

So, should I work out the physics and take it this concept to the next level and design it or in your opinions is it conceptually flawed?

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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

I am unable to view your sketch :esad:
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

funny, i used a jpg, let me try a png. I see it on my browser.
here is a .png is this better?
here is a .png is this better?
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Trying to get a handle on your verbal explaination, but your diagram isn't going to work as I understand it.

Seems you need a true bubble cap design to retain that much liquid. You will have to push some serious input to prevent collapsing and that would likely mean smearing (and lower proof)

Unless I'm not getting it.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by olddog »

You will never hold liquid in those chambers, vapor pressure will not hold it there, and it will continually drain down the holes in the centre tube. If you turn it upside down and modify it a bit it would be simila to LWTCS's thump tower.
multi thumper.png

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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

yeah, that was a big part of the inspiration for it. Guess back to the drawing board

Does this look like it would be more successful ( for the obvious limitations of 1in.. sorry, i just got a LOT of it for free)
still2.png

also, I did some math, it looks using 1", 1.5" and 1.75" I've only reduced the columns usable area to 80%. Thats 640 watts safely max.
[mass x c x delta T] x (1/w) = #... #/60 = numbers of minutes to reach target temp if i remember correctly.
So my 800W is reduced to 640W, meaning to raise the temp to boiling point from room temperature for 3 gallons will take about an hour & 20 min... if i dont' crank during heat up it and then turn it down.

I"m looking at this build as A) would be fun B) could use the soldering practice, and C) i have a lot of free 1"pipe laying around... (10 ft of it). This being said, is this sketch possible or scrap the idea?

Thank you for your input!
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Yes that diagram is more gooder.

For my build,, I was afraid that all the connection points would make for manys leaks and many hours of wanting to stick an ice pick in my ear while fixing leaks.

I have a lot of weight hanging off my rig so I ended up with a continuous 1.5 center pipe and installed stopper discs inside my 1.5 at each chamber level. Then drilled a couple of holes for vapor outlet and then vapor inlet.

So my structural integrity is supplied by the continuous pipe down the middle of the apperatus.

Regular soft solder gonna be weak. Best try and braze with silver solder.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

OH, one last question.. would about 1/8 cup or 39ml be too little liquid to polish the vapors?
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

guittarmaster wrote:would about 1/8 cup or 39ml be too little liquid to polish the vapors?
I don't think so. As long as your vapor path is sound, you'll get a more polished abv output. Can't say for sure how well the "thumper Flavoring" would work.

No fill ports drawn on your chambers. Will you just self fill with the dephleg?
And BTW, I do think for you to get the very best performance out of this scale you will need a way to manage your power and a CM tool. I got some spare bits laying round for a dephlegmater if you need something.

This rig will perform best when the head is fully cycling/equalized.

One could say why bother. I say why not.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by Chasin' Tales »

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=13195

I built this column last winter. Worked great. I got some 3" stainless pipe for free so I built a 3" VM packed column and have been using it since. The 2" bubble cap worked great though. Thinking about using it for stripping runs.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

LWTCS wrote:No fill ports drawn on your chambers. Will you just self fill with the dephleg?
I was thinking about filling the bubble plates with wash manually. I was thinking about having a a screw on boka type of LM system attached to the last "pod"

Quick question to make sure i understand the terminology correctly. A dephlegmater, in one sentence, is a jacketed, water cooled vertical pipe to create reflux and and dephleg i thought was another term for a condenser, like the shotgun-dephlag that was linked to from the flute talk thread. Sorry for my ignorance on this one.
LWTCS wrote:need a way to manage your power and a CM tool
Right now my rig is still small enough to fit on my stove top and i have tapped into the cold water line to the sink to supply the cold water for the condenser. LOL, I drain the warm water from the condenser into the sink, add soap and use it to clean everything... it's fairly efficient.
Chasin' Tales wrote:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=13195

I built this column last winter. Worked great. I got some 3" stainless pipe for free so I built a 3" VM packed column and have been using it since. The 2" bubble cap worked great though. Thinking about using it for stripping runs.
Thats a nice still. I also like that 2" plate rig that was posted too... Maybe I'll try my hand at something like that after this build.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Yes, a dephlegmater is a condenser.

Edit:
An apparatus used in fractional distillation to cool the vapor mixture, thereby condensing higher-boiling fractions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pulled that simple discript off off the internet some where.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

OH HAPPY DAY!!! I was driving and saw one of those super-mega-giant hardware ultra stores.... THEY HAD 2"... 10 ft for $71 US! And, if that wasn't all, I came across a 15.5 gal keg too! I believe that circumstances for the design parameters of this build has changed. The temptation to attempt something fantastic is soo strong... must... start.. off.. small... to... build... skills... grr.

Going to start on the condenser, electrifying the keg, and connections first. Hopefully I'll have something nice to show you-nz after the thanksgiving break.

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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

Got components for the electric controller for my keg boiler. ALso, since i have a tall skinny 1.2 keg.. I was thinking about having it cut in half and welded onto my large 15.5 gal keg to make a head for foam. Has anyone else done this? Just because I haven't seen any photo's of this but that doesn't it hasn't been done yet.

I've been too busy with papers, lab reports, and the upcoming finals to have gotten any real progress made yet, but during the holiday season I plan on getting a lot of new still construction done AND on documenting the build. I believe y'all will appreciate hearing about it more than my girlfriend will. :lol: will keep you posted. Thanks for the help.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by Barney Fife »

ALso, since i have a tall skinny 1.2 keg.. I was thinking about having it cut in half and welded onto my large 15.5 gal keg to make a head for foam. Has anyone else done this?

That would make it a thumper/puke box, there, Uncle Pecos.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

I meant more like this,
keg still.png
Sort of like those onion shaped tops to the copper alembic. I noticed that some of the commercial stills have also have that extra dome-ish room above the original boiler.
The brand new batch still with reflux column and condenser.jpg
The brand new batch still with reflux column and condenser.jpg (19.09 KiB) Viewed 2777 times
I was thinking that cutting the tall 6 gal keg in half and welding it on top of the 15.5 gal keg (after removing it's top) would achieve this as well. And since the new attachment is also a snakey style keg I can still use my 2" tri-clamps to swap out my reflux column for Gin and Vodka and attach a separate pot column for whiskeys and rums. Sorry the image sucks, i had to use paint... public computer.


That extra room that would be created above the original keg... that's not a thumper right? Isnt' a thumper what's on OD's Frankinstill and condensificator thumpificator?
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Pretty sure Barney miss read.

I love that. More head space for puke prevention. Or,,, sort of a helpful lil start on organizing your fractions as they enter your column riser.

I got a scaled down version of that on the Humper Thumper.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by The Baker »

guittarmaster wrote:I meant more like this,
keg still.png
Sort of like those onion shaped tops to the copper alembic. I noticed that some of the commercial stills have also have that extra dome-ish room above the original boiler.
The brand new batch still with reflux column and condenser.jpg
I was thinking that cutting the tall 6 gal keg in half and welding it on top of the 15.5 gal keg (after removing it's top) would achieve this as well. And since the new attachment is also a snakey style keg I can still use my 2" tri-clamps to swap out my reflux column for Gin and Vodka and attach a separate pot column for whiskeys and rums. Sorry the image sucks, i had to use paint... public computer.


That extra room that would be created above the original keg... that's not a thumper right? Isnt' a thumper what's on OD's Frankinstill and condensificator thumpificator?
I've got a boiler a bit like that which I will be setting up soon.

It's got a tall stainless boiler of maybe 50+ litres, and I have a copper fire extinguisher fixed on top, with a two inch outlet. It will be operated as a pot still, on bottled gas, with a worm condenser.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Pretty sure Ozone did a similar keg mod with some 12" SS too.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

I'ld love to see pics of those ozone and baker!

I talked to friend of mine who does construction, He had an insightful idea; to go get the type of clamps that are used on Jeep Wranglers that keep the hood down, and use them to keep the top half of the 2nd keg on. It would allow easy access for cleaning and would assist in whiskey making by allowing suspension of grains via a sack or net basket (think French-press), suspended above the heater element. This way I can use the boiler to make all grain whiskeys, 14 gallons worth, pour it off into a fermenter, and then later distill in it!!! :D :D :D
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by The Baker »

guittarmaster wrote:I'ld love to see pics of those ozone and baker!

snip

!! :D :D :D
Look under Distillation of Spirits, My Still, Copper Coil Condenser for a picture of the worm condenser. I'm still working on the rest of the set-up. Thanks for your interest.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Also GM, look for my Humper Thumper build pics and see how I engineer'd the cap for my thumper

I'm on the hand held now so I can't post em for you.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Here it is
Hardly no money on parts

All stainless. bit of threaded rod and some nuts.

I was going for a no paste seal but didn't get it done.

Recon 2 or 3 more tabs would have got it..

I'm a lazy ass.
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Inline thumper final pics 007.jpg
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

LWTCS wrote:I'm a lazy ass.
Finally, i can say I'm among my brothers!

I saw that... It's probably what I'll do since i just priced the jeep clips... $16 each is a little much right now (x-mas & all).... in case anybody likes the idea too. http://www2.am-autoparts.com/Jeep/Wrang ... 27267.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
If only i find something similar to this for around $5 us each.

I'm getting my copper all cut up tonight. Don't know if I should post it in a new thread or not. I'll hopefully be finished and drinking from her before mid Jan!
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by LWTCS »

Yeah dude, I priced up some,,,,,,think they are called "swing latches" or some such thing.

Spendy ass hell. And the photos made them look like really low grade construction and materials. Marine industry has a bunch of nice stuff. But again spendy ass hell.
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Re: small diameter plate or thumper tower?

Post by guittarmaster »

It looks like Nuts and Bolts it is then!

I want to post a sketch of the new builds concept to get some input on. build objectives are a reflux VM, short enough that it's easy to stash away/hide and will produce amazingly clean vodka and gin without the need of cutting a hole in the ceiling. I am willing to add a little more time to the run to accommodate space and quality. Since this is a technically a new concept/ build should I start a new thread?

Keg as described on page two of this thread, electric controlled, 4500W, 220V... and this on top of it
new design.
new design.
twin_columns.JPG (5.63 KiB) Viewed 2625 times
(not drawn perfectly to scale)

This is based on OD's Evil twins, Decoys plate theory, after having read Barney Fifes simple yet effective 2" thread and more.

2" twin columns, with 1/2" pipe (A) connecting the two like the Evil Twins. I'm not sure if i should go flat or curved plates, they both seem to have their advantages. 10 plates total, 4" apart. Internal downcommers not drawn for simplicity, thinking the internal "J" style. The connecting 1/2 pipe would be soldered to the side of Column 2 below the dephlagmater... hopefully the thermal contact would pre-heat Column 2, reducing the time for equilibrium to be reached. This same thermal contact is why i was thinking the dephlagmater instead of a double helix of 1/4" pipe like in a boka... the dephlagmater seemed more hard-core.

The vapor moves up the 2nd column to the dephlagmater (C). I was thinking since i'll have a lot of 1/2 inch I could make a shotgun dephlagmater.

(B) is the tri-clamp that would leave me access to place a gin bucket on top of the dephlagmater. Was thinking this design would allow me to keep my flavors separated from the plates so I don't strip it out while I establish
equilibrium.

Reflux would fill column 2 and since OD seemed to get good result in the Evil Twins without a dephlagmater, Column 1 would go without a cooling/reflux generating water supply.

Also the weight of column 2 would be held up by support pipes attaching it to column 1 (black bars in the illustration)

Thank you all for your input. I have all the parts in house right now. 10 feet of 2" and more! :D
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