Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ???

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Liquid_Luv
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:13 am
Location: Always on the move.

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by Liquid_Luv »

ArkyJ wrote:Hey Liquid!

Do you want to fly over with me. I am leaving tomorrow to get my two new Ferrari 458 Itallias from the factory. I assume your private strip can handle my newly refitted Boeing 767. God! What a major head ache. I told them not a dime more than 10 mil and it had to have space for the horses and trainer. Oh well!
Tell your people get with my people to set it up.
ArkyJ
Ok, maybe I deserved that... but, I was serious!

BTW. The Ferrari Plant is way up North in Modena, Quite a far stretch from my Villa... you would be better off flying into France, then renting a vehicule to drive over to Modena... Don't forget to buy yourself some original Balsamic Vinegar from one of the old families... get the not for export stuff... let me know when you'll be going, I can hook you up! :wink:

PS.If you are serious, I get to drive one of em... funny though... not for Luv, nor money... I've been of a freakin waitin list... I'd gladly pay you 120% to have one of yours, providing you haven't already told mrs ArkyJ one's for her :lol:
Does it really matter where it comes from or only that it is; knowing what to do with it is the only thing that matters. Too many folks tend to lose track of what is important. Does it work or not? Now there's an intelligent question. Words to live by...
ArkyJ
Swill Maker
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:08 pm

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by ArkyJ »

Sorry there Mr. Liquid.
I'm one step up from trailer trash and I've been on the other side of that step also. 26 years in Uncle Sam's Animal Farm (USAF) and they promised I would see the world. That is the only thing they did not lie about. So, basiclly, been there and done that to include the ferrari plant a long time ago when they were not so shit picky about it. There are a lot of beautiful places in this world. Crete comes to mind. A few places in South America and god! Did l love Christschurch, NZ but all of that is in the eye of the beholder.
Don't need a 767. Uncle Sam still flies to any destination, of my choice, when ever the bug gets me. Not first class, but the coffee is always hot and there is alway room to make a bed for sleeping. Maybe Chang Mi, Thai next year. I hear the weather is nice in Jan.
ArkyJ
If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any at all.
Sbeghan
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:54 pm
Location: Invercargil, NZ

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by Sbeghan »

I can tell from personal experience that aging the wines before you distill makes a huge difference. Just as any wine can go from rocket fuel to sublime you'll increase the flavors and hearts in a distilled product. Its one of the reasons that I've taken up collecting 15.5 gallon kegs to start fermenting and aging in.

Do note that different yeasts have different results from aging sur lie. D-47, K1 V-1116, D-10 are all recommended yeasts for aging sur lie (D-47 is excellent and easy to get). Bread yeast is ok. Other yeasts are really bad for aging sur lie, like 71B-1112.
Liquid_Luv
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:13 am
Location: Always on the move.

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by Liquid_Luv »

Sbeghan wrote:I can tell from personal experience that aging the wines before you distill makes a huge difference. Just as any wine can go from rocket fuel to sublime you'll increase the flavors and hearts in a distilled product. Its one of the reasons that I've taken up collecting 15.5 gallon kegs to start fermenting and aging in.

Do note that different yeasts have different results from aging sur lie. D-47, K1 V-1116, D-10 are all recommended yeasts for aging sur lie (D-47 is excellent and easy to get). Bread yeast is ok. Other yeasts are really bad for aging sur lie, like 71B-1112.
Wow, that is some excellent info... thanks for sharing!

Would it be too much to ask for the exact strains by name as many of us, myself included, are likely not familiar with all of these listed by their trade numbers... as well, do you have any comments or experience using EC-1118 [Saccharomyces cerevisiae ]a popular yeast use by many here on HD forum?

Could you alo elaborate on what is good, and what is really bad with the types of yeast mentioned above.
Does it really matter where it comes from or only that it is; knowing what to do with it is the only thing that matters. Too many folks tend to lose track of what is important. Does it work or not? Now there's an intelligent question. Words to live by...
Sbeghan
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:54 pm
Location: Invercargil, NZ

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by Sbeghan »

The names of the yeasts are the strains. I could give the species but that's really irrelevant. Go to a brew shop and look at their yeasts, they'll be in packets with these numbers.
When I say sur lie aging I mean, literally, with the lees. You can rack the clarified wash off the yeast 1 month after it finishes fermenting and age it separately, or you can leave it on the lees to age it. So if you used a yeast that isn't good for aging sur lie then just rack it off. As wine ages on the lees the yeast cells will autolyse and release their contents into the wine - some of these will be long chain polysaccharides that will contribute to mouthfeel, other components contribute to flavor or will chemically react with the wine to affect aging.

I'll just copy and pasta my notes.
EC-1118
The EC-1118 yeast has been isolated in Champagne and its use is validated by the
Comité Interprofessionnel du Vin de Champagne (CIVC). Its strong competitive
character, its ability to ferment at low temperature, good flocculation and excellent
alcohol tolerance, make the EC-1118 an excellent strain to be used in a wide range of
applications (such as sparkling wines, fruit wines and ciders)
EC-1118 is related to many bread yeasts and turbo yeasts, so picked because of its high tolerances, low flavor contribution, and vigor. By its nature as a champagne yeasts it is used to age sur lie in the bottle.

Lees: OK
ABV: 18%
Temp: 15-25C
Lag: Short
Nitrogen: Low
Rate: Fast
Floc: Good
MLF Neutral

This is a fast and clean fermenter. Recommended for restarting stuck fermentations, or when you want something to ferment fast, clean, and dry to preserve the varietal aromas. Try to keep the temp under 20C to reduce fusels.

D-47 http://www.lalvinyeast.com/images/libra ... _Yeast.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
ICV-D47 is a Côtes du Rhône isolate for the production of full-bodied, barrel fermented Chardonnay
and other white varietals. When left on lees, ripe, spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes are
developed. ICV-D47 is a high polysaccharide producer known to accentuate fruit characteristics and
bring volume and complexity to white wines
One of my favourites, its a fire and forget yeast. Ages quickly. Aging sur lie contributes to mouthfeel.

Competitive factor
Lees: Yes!
ABV: 14%
Temp: 15-20C
Lag: Short
Nitrogen: Low
Rate: Medium
Floc: Good
MLF: Neutral

This yeast prefers cool controlled temps. Above 20C it will throw off a lot of fusel aromas. It is excellent for sur lie aging and lees contact is OK.

71B-1112
71B is known for making blush and semi-sweet wines and owes its success to its abilities to produce amyl ester (isoamyl acetate), reinforcing the aromatic profile of wines. 71B also softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid (20-30%).
Aging sur lie will add, reportedly, a bit of a sewage aroma.

Sensitive to competitive factor K2
Lees: NO
ABV: 14%
Temp: 15-30C
Lag: Short
Nitrogen: very low
Rate: Moderate
Floc: Good
MLF: Excellent

Good for reducing malic acid, esp in conjunction with malolactic acid fermenting bacteria.
This should be racked ASAP. Lees contact tends to yield poor flavor.
Matures very quickly.


K1 V-1116
The Lalvin V1116® has been isolated in 1972 by Pierre Barre of the INRA Montpellier. This yeast tends to express freshness of white grape varieties. Natural fresh fruit aromas are retained for a longer time when compared with wines fermented with standard yeasts (such as Prise de Mousse). When fermented at low temperatures (below 16°C) and with the right addition of nutrients, Lalvin V1116® is one of the more flowery ester producers (isoamyl acetate, hexyl acetate, phenyl ethyl acetate). These esters bring fresh floral aromas to neutral varieties or high-yield grapes. Among the high ester producers, Lalvin V1116® is the most resistant to difficult fermentation conditions such as low turbidity, low temperature, and low fatty acid content. Lalvin V1116® is recommended for the fermentation of ice wines. It can also be used for rosé or basic red wines.
This is another favourite of mine.

Competitive factor K2
Lees: Yes
ABV: 18%
Temp: 15-30C
Lag: Very Short
Nitrogen: Medium
Rate: Moderate
MLF: Inhibits

Rough when young, but ages very well.

D-21
Lalvin ICV D21® was isolated in 1999 from Pic Saint Loup Languedoc “terroir” during a special regional program run by the Institut Coopératif du Vin (ICV)’s Natural Micro-Flora Observatory and Conservatory. Lalvin ICV-D21® was selected for fermenting red wines with stable color, intense fore-mouth, mid-palate tannin structure, and fresh aftertaste. Unlike most wine yeasts, it contributes both higher acidity and positive polyphenol reactive polysaccharides. Strong interactions of the polysaccharides with the floral and fruity volatile compounds (β-ionone, ethyl hexanoate) contribute to a more stable aromatic profile in the mouth. These attributes avoid the development of cooked jam and burning-alcohol sensations in highly mature and concentrated Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Syrah. During fermentation, Lalvin ICV-D21® produces very few sulfides and it is also noted for its good fermentation performance even under high temperature and low nutrient conditions. It allows for the expression of fruit from the grapes while reducing the potential for herbaceous characters in Cabernet sauvignon. When blended with wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-D254( YSEO)® and Lalvin ICV-D80®, Lalvin ICV-D21® brings fresher, sustained intense fruit and lively sensations beginning in the fore-mouth and carrying through to the aftertaste. This yeast is also used in very ripe white grapes, barrel-fermented to develop fresh fruit aromas, volume and acidity which compliments wines fermented with Enoferm ICV-D47(YSEO)® in blends. Rosé wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-D21® have enhanced red fruit, fore-mouth volume and balance, making it the perfect blending complement to Rosé wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-GRE®.

Competitive factor
Lees:
ABV: 16%
Temp: 12.5-32.5C
Lag: Very short
Nitrogen:low
Rate: moderate
MLF: Neutral

Similar to DV10 but better than DV10 with warmer temps. Also forgiving of low nutrient musts.

DV-10
Lalvin DV 10® was selected by the SOEC in the Champagne region and is approved by the CIVC in Epernay. It has strong fermentation kinetics over a wide temperature range and relatively low nitrogen demands. Lalvin DV10® is famous for its ability to ferment under stressful conditions of low pH, high total SO2 and low temperature. Low foaming and low VA production characterize it. This yeast is considered a clean fermenter that respects varietal character and avoids bitter sensory contributions of other one-dimensional ‘workhorse’ yeasts such as Prise de Mousse. It is classified as a Saccharomyces cerevisiae bayanus.

Competitive factor
Lees: Yes
ABV: 18%
Temp: 10-30C
Lag: Very short
Nitrogen: low
Rate: Fast
MLF: Yes

Clean fermenter, very neutral, lets the honey shine through.
Forgiving with nutrients and aeration. Tolerates warmer temps.
Great for traditionals.
frozenthunderbolt
Distiller
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Location: North island of New Zealand

Re: Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ??

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Liquid_Luv wrote:OK, get ready... here comes another long winded L_L post :ewink:
Rancio is a desirable flavor in well-aged fruit-based brandies, but it's very hard to define. I read somewhere that it's an "earthy, cheesy, mushroomy" flavor. Personally, I would add soy sauce to that list, but it's a flavor that, until you've tasted it a few times, is hard to understand.
Nation's Restaurant News, July 17, 2000 by Gary Regan
I believe this would be known as umami in food:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Interesting to find it in drink as-well
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

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