Delph surface area and temp questions

[ibgeekn]

Looking at how to make the simplest delph and how to best control the temp.
First, looking at the Majic Flute, the delph reduction fittings are expensive in this area. I did some rough figuring and come up with the total exposed area of a 3"-2" reducer for the inner cone to be approx. 45 sq. in. of exposed and cooled area. (area=2 x 3.1416 x r x l )
However, using a a 1/4 " x 2" loops coil of only 10 turns, approx. 5in total coil length yields approx. 65 sq. in. exposed/cooled area. And it allows for shorter overall column height using a side takeoff.
I know these designs have been discussed in another thread, but the delph wasn't really touched on as for effeciency.
So why would you want to spend the time/expense of building a dual cone delph opposed to a coil instert delph? Is there a difference in effeciency factor?
AND...as the batch runs the cooling water is going to change temp. on a recirculating system. So what temps are we trying to knock down the stack with at the delph? I would think it makes a big difference if when starting it's 70F versus 125f at the delph. But that's what kind of variance it looks like when measuring at the condensor and we would be sharing that supply source so there's just one pump.
Thoughts??

[LWTCS]

So why would you want to spend the time/expense of building a dual cone delph opposed to a coil instert delph? Is there a difference in effeciency factor?

Hooks assertion is that an internal coil would make a very good dephlagmater. Lesser amount of water needed for a pretty good bit of efficiency..

Just don't think folks have gotten round to it yet.

Think they been waiting on you

[LWTCS]

Forgot to make my main point.

With less water needed to adjust cooling,,,,one cauld get their coiled deeflegohmygod to respond to adjustments with less lag.

Shotgun deflegohgators should do a good job of thang too.

[Barney Fife]

I almost went with a coiled condenser instead of my std. deplegmator, but had a concern with the small volume of water in the coil coming to a quick and hard boil when the flow was stopped. Not sure what kind of pressure buildup we'd have with a small volume like that coming to a hard boil. The larger volume of a std. dephleg. doesn't seem to come to a boil, but if it would, the pressures would be spread over a very large area.

My second concern was with how everything would work; a dephleg is a large unobstructed opening that is jacketed by cooling water, where a coiled condenser is a lot of cooling that also obstructs the flow of vapors. As far as cooling or reflux, the coil is hands-down more efficient, but perhaps too much so. And the dephleg sends its reflux down the sides to reach the plates, where a coil would send the reflux down the center of the column. Might make a difference, might not...

the dephleg was also dead-simple to build...

[LWTCS]

For all those reasons mentioned by you Barney is prolly why folks have stay'd with the jacketed condenser......

Somebody gonna do the coil soon though....Recon we can find out soon enough.

Sides,,,,,,,,,I got my likker machine

[ibgeekn]

Well, we'll know later this week on how a coil works. Have a left over 1/4" x 2"dia coil left over from an offset head design. Total copper length is 85", that's 10 coils. Just put down a malt extract/cracked corn wash to ferment so I'll have something to run next weekend.

-Pressure buildup in the coil--Good point, but the exit side of the coil will go back to the exit side of the vapor condensor, so pressure won't be able to build up. Everything would be open back to the water tank.

-Delph dropping down sides v. coil dropping down center-- Specs on here show someone found the delph dropping down sides was not good, they added a ring so it dripped off ring ring down onto plates. Otherwise would wash down sides and not rain down the middle.

-Coil causing path restriction-- A 1/4" OD coil presents only 1/2" restriction. The cone delph creates a restriction ridge of 1" if coning from 4 to a 3, so the coil will be less.

So from what I hear in this short thread I'll go ahead and drill 2 holes in the top, solder it in and be done. To me that's easier than the cone delph, great design but as I said the reducers are expensive since I'd have to order them, $22 ea. Leftover copper coil $ 00, that's truly priceless......................

[myles]

If you like the idea of coils why not go for the simple 2 stage coil dephlegmator instead?

It looks like you are thinking of using a 2" inner tube so just wrap an external coil around your 2" tube to work as your primary dephlegmator. That provides enough cooling for normal use. However when you want 100% reflux it will need a bit of a 'boost', that is where a small internal coil comes into play.

By using the smallest possible internal coil you minimise the restriction to the vapour path. It is not as neat a solution as the jacketed dephlegmator, but it will work.


6 or 7 coils on the outside of the 2" tube is more effective than you might think. NOT enough to get full reflux though. (10 or 12 coils might be a different matter.)

[ibgeekn]

Appreciate the thought.....
But this is to be a 4" plated column. The coil is wound on a 2" core, but no core installed in the column. Coil will enter/exit top of fitted cap on column. Control valve will be on the diverter line which feeds both the vapor condensor and the column coil. The coil will be installed in the top of the column, with a side takeoff.

Still haven't gotten any speculation on regulating the coil condensation/reflux with the same water source as the condensor. Question arises only because the water temp will indeed change as the cook progresses.
Using an inline cooling coil from an air conditioner to knock off some of the heat direct to air before dumping back into the recirculating water system. But I still get a temp rise in the condensor. Stays down low enough to condense fine but how will it effect the reflux?

Any experience or ideas?

[Barney Fife]

great design but as I said the reducers are expensive since I'd have to order them, $22 ea

No need for reducers, or any fittings. I built my entire 3" column and dephleg(note spelling... makes it nay impossible to ever search for this thread in the future if you keep spelling it backwards) without buying any fittings/reducers. Just make them. I made my ends/reducers from 1" copper pipe, sliced open and hammered flat. In your case, some 1-1/2" copper pipe, sliced open and hammered flat, would work with the 4" column. I'm totally with you on the cost of the fittings, which is why I found a way to not need any.

as for the reflux raining down the middle, that's what I don't want to happen, as that would create uncontrolled re-distillation; by making the reflux follow the column's sides, it goes back to the plate(s) uninterrupted, so it only gets re-distilled by the plate, and not by the upcoming vapor. As i noted, whether or not this will make a difference, I don't know, but in my mind, I don't want my plated column to be a reflux column as we know them. So far, the flavor's proving very promising, so much so that I'd hesitate to recommend otherwise.

I also realize your coil won't present a restriction to the flow, but what I said was it will be an -obstruction-. Different beasts, them. With a big open dephleg, the vapor has plenty of room to flow and roll and rise without directly touching any cooling surface, as the cooling surface itself is minimal(and that's why as a vapor knock-down condenser, it's inefficient)where with the coil has so much surface area that most of the vapor will come into direct contact with a cooling surface on its way up. Again, will this matter? Only a true A-B-A test, with no other changes will answer that, and it will likely also be true that for different flavor profiles, we'll want one or the other, also.

[HookLine]

Hooks assertion is that an internal coil would make a very good dephlagmater. Lesser amount of water needed for a pretty good bit of efficiency.

Think that might have been more a suggestion than an assertion. But it is true that I can't see any reason a coil would not make a reasonable dephlegmator, given it has accurate control of coolant flow. Plan on using one myself, possibly with some adaption, for my CM condenser build.

Current design is a single 3/8" coil, with staggered deflector plates in the centre hole pushing the vapour toward the coil a few times on its way through, but hopefully with still enough easy overall flow to let that still head be used for stripping (low wine) runs.

Don't see a double coil defleg being too restrictive to vapour flow when turned off, even with some scrubber/mesh stuffed in the centre. But a single coil version with scrubber/mesh may be more restrictive.

[Chiller]

To resurrect a slightly old thread... How did the coil perform? Too much cooling and high back pressure would be my major concerns.

Also, WHERE DOES EVERYBODY GET THESE CHEAP REDUCERS? The best I've found is at pexsupply, $40 a piece! I'd greatly appreciate it ibgeekn if you could direct me to your 'expensive' source

Chiller

[Barney Fife]

Also, WHERE DOES EVERYBODY GET THESE CHEAP REDUCERS?

Simple, don't buy any. Check out my still photos for ideas on how I made mine. It's the "Barney's Variable Volume yadd ayadda yadda..." thread.

I scored 2 more copper bowls and one solid(and thick!) dished copper ashtray at the second hand store today, for well under $10. A couple minutes' work and I'll have the reducers and/or bubble trays for my next modifications to my column.

Think outside the box....

[heartcut]

I'll be building this or something close and will tell you what results come of a 3/8" ss coil for a dephleg. My work schedule is hectic and this is a pile of parts and a drawing. Not original, just taking ideas from lots of others, especially OD. 2 valve plates, 2' to 4" column, gin basket and wound dephlag and condensor. Any feedback would be appreciated.

4in2TrayCuFluteGinBskt.pdf

(53.66 KiB) Downloaded 77 times

[heartcut]

On the subject of water boiling in a coil dephleg, I use a short 1/4" coil in the top of a 2" x 32" potstill for a little reflux and it doesn't boil with no flow while collecting tails. Hopefully a 3/8" coil will work in a valve plate setup, if not it's back to the plumbing supply.