New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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violentblue
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

well still waiting on a price but they have this unit here
made from lead free brass for the European market
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3wayvalve.jpg
olddog
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

That's exactly the same as I can get in OZ for $19.95
This looks the way I will be going, I will de-lead them just to make sure. I will only need 3 for a four plate column, as it does not have to be a 3 way on the top plate. The only trouble I have found is that the body of the valve is 3"across the top of the T, and as the will be fitted sort of laying on their sides, by the time you fit the compression fitting they measure 4 1/2", I will see if I can over come this by turning some inserts instead of the compression fittings and then solder the tubing to the insert. Using the valves laying on their sides also elliminates the requirement for a T fitting, as the valve itself makes that T. I will just put a 2 way valve for the top plate as it only requires to be in drain position or turned of to activate the plate.





OD
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Uisge_a_Ghlinne
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Uisge_a_Ghlinne »

Samohon wrote:
Uisge_a_Ghlinne wrote:Gardening vermiculite works great as a heat shield too. It also has the advantage of filling columns. Up until recently I have been using a bog standard gas torch and had to plan things through. Having just got a Rotherberger torch using Mapp its a piece of cake, even on the larger pieces.
Yeah, I use a Rotherberger Mapp torch, that and the fire bricks arranged to keep the heat focused on the work makes things damn easy...

With a handle like Uisge_a_Ghlinne, you gotta be around here somewhere... Glad to have ya man... :wink:

Should have more drawings up tomorrow guy's.... :wink:
Aye I am in the land of the Gael :D . I have built a furnace and used gardening vermiculite as the insulation after the refactory. It takes a good heat before decomposing. It is also ideal for making a bed for the more unusual pieces that we occasionally have in this game.
kenfyoozed
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by kenfyoozed »

olddog wrote:That's exactly the same as I can get in OZ for $19.95
This looks the way I will be going, I will de-lead them just to make sure. I will only need 3 for a four plate column, as it does not have to be a 3 way on the top plate. The only trouble I have found is that the body of the valve is 3"across the top of the T, and as the will be fitted sort of laying on their sides, by the time you fit the compression fitting they measure 4 1/2", I will see if I can over come this by turning some inserts instead of the compression fittings and then solder the tubing to the insert. Using the valves laying on their sides also elliminates the requirement for a T fitting, as the valve itself makes that T. I will just put a 2 way valve for the top plate as it only requires to be in drain position or turned of to activate the plate.





OD
If you were to put a 3 way on the top the drain system could be used as a flushing system after each run. You could flush each plate then drain.
Usge
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Don't know how big you guys need...but "morebeer" has 1/4 stainless 3-ways on sale for 9 bucks (even cheaper if you buy more than 10). I'm assuming you might need more flow than that for a 4 incher. But, these might work fine for draining 2" plates.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/6320/1 ... 22_-_3_Way_" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheapest I saw was on ebay for 42.50 each for 1/2"

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-3-W ... _698wt_907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Usge
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Managed to get the J-trap finished this weekend. I hammered out the plate from 2" tube. Did a raw cut, then filed/fit the rest. Its basically like rolling a ceegar...just take your time. Some light work with a hammer was warranted. Then final filing for fitting. I waited till the end (after rolling) to cut the slot in the back. I've not made the half-moon piece that attaches to the back of this, but I used the plate copper thickness to determine the floor height of the notch I cut in the back. Any way, more pics.
J_Trap_downcomer_1.jpg
J_Trap_downcomer_2.jpg
J_Trap_downcomer_3.jpg
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Again this looks great Usge... Are you gonna solder the downcomer to the wall of the tube.?
Could just flux the inside then lie 2 stips of solder into/onto the joint and heat from the outside...
Downcomer.png
Could even use OD's tinning recipe by putting a good layer of solder onto the downcomer sides, then again heat from the outside...

Starting mine tomorrow, trying to get these graphics finished as well...

Nice work man, keep it coming... :wink:
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Usge
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Thanks Sam. Yes, I was thinking of soldering the bottom of this downcomer (with half-moon disk) to the tube. Not quite sure how I'm going to go about it yet, so yes..suggestions welcome :) Was thinking just cutting 4" section of tube. Solder plate in top with downcomer 5/8" above the plate. Then work from other side of tube to solder in the bottom of the j-trap. Then, I plan on using that as a plate "module" that will go inside a 2" copper join with middle stop..to connect to upper tube assembly. If I want to add another plate...i'll make another module and insert it between the bottom assembly and the dephleg. Still a long way to go ...got plates to build, the shotgun dephleg, etc. But, its definitely doable using the drawings you gave, even for a hack like me :)

Would also add...for those who don't want to hammer out their own sheet copper from left over tube :).... this place has all kind of sheet..including plate and circles and will do just about any size you want. They also do custom cuts, etc. And they have free shipping. They aren't "cheap" however (particularly now that copper is way up). But, it's another resource. http://store.electrical-insulators-and- ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
ginjo
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by ginjo »

metalferrous is way cheaper if you don't need circles thicker than 1/16''. 4'' circle, mf:$3.40, storm:$35.00. That's over ten times as much $$ for the same thing.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Hey Usge, heres how I'll do the half-moon disc for the bottom J-Type Downcomer...
J-Type Bottom.png
BTW, mark a solderline onto the the plate to connect it to the bottom of the J-Type while you have it in position...

Hope it helps bro... :wink:

EDIT: Make sure to marry both center lines on the plate and the ID of the pipe, which can be drawn on paper if you want... :wink:
J-Type Bottom2.png
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olddog
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

I managed to order my 3 way valves at the right price, they were listed at $19.95 each buy it now, or offer. I contacted the seller telling them how many I wanted and offered $15 each, which was accepted. :mrgreen: I will wait for them to arrive before constructing the valve tree.




OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
Usge
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Thanks Sam. Probably be a few days before I can get more of it done...but I'll let you know how it turns out and post more pics when I'm done. I already know the ID of the DWV pipe. And I used "that" to scale your template. So far..everything has lined up. I did a test fit (using card stock paper) and everything fit. The real question is...how close to "that" can "I" get...whacking away at the copper :).
violentblue
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

just got word back
brass and stainless are within a couple dollars, so stainless is the obvious choice
so for 304SS 3 way valves

1/2” = $31
3/4” $43
1” $67
This is priced in north america (plus shipping), still waiting on prices for Australia- should be similar.
Last edited by violentblue on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
olddog
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

That's a great price for stainless VB, I have already ordered mine in brass at $15 each, to be de-leaded of coarse. I just picked up some solderable nipples which will screw into each port on the valve, which will keep the size down so they will fit in between the 4"gap between the plates, which I will be able to solder the 1/2"tube directly into the nipple. Compression fitting would have made the valve too big.


OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
violentblue
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

olddog wrote:...which will keep the size down so they will fit in between the 4"gap between the plates.
OD
funny how universal things are, My plate column is designed as 100mm between plates (so we can make maximum use of the pipe ordered in meter lengths)
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

I don't know which way to go now. I designed Flute II with a 4"tri-clanp to fasten the top plate to the column. When I built the Stumpy prototype, I soldered the plate to the top of the 4"column, as I have now soldered all of the plates to the full size build, and soldered the downcomers to the column wall, I can't see any need to be able to remove the top plate. I think I will repeat the proceedure with this column and just solder the plate on the top, this will remove the expense of ferrules and a 4"tri-clamp.


OD
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Lawrenceburg Native
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Lawrenceburg Native »

squidd wrote:"That was why I suggested earlier to add one valve in the lower part of the drain tube, before the boiler. Would do everything the 3-way valves do, if partially filling the drain tube is acceptable. Can't quite see returning hard earned reflux back into the boiler for reprocessing."

Just sayin',
squidd
Gentlemen,
With all due respect to the experts here, squidd is on the right track on this one. I recently visited Stone Barn Brandy Works (http://www.stonebarnbrandyworks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) and the external pipes and valves on their professional still was for their CIP. Clean In Place system. It was so the cleaning water could be controlled to specific trays. The owner demonstrated this for me.

The contactors, trays, plates, or whatever folks are calling them were drained with a different lever.

It feels like too much effort and expense to have external valves to just disable a tray. Why add extra pipes for liquid to travel through when it could just drop through a hole in the tray. What about a well designed drain for the trays?

-Lawrenceburg Native, admitted novice.
olddog
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

Lawrenceburg Native wrote:It feels like too much effort and expense to have external valves to just disable a tray.
An external valve system is a lot simpler to construct than an internal one, the cost would be a lot cheaper than trying to make an internal system.



OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
violentblue
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, the foremost advantage of this setup is that it can be built with off the shelf parts.
secondly it does not take up any space on an already small plate.
squidd
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by squidd »

Lawrenceburg Native wrote:
squidd wrote:"That was why I suggested earlier to add one valve in the lower part of the drain tube, before the boiler. Would do everything the 3-way valves do, if partially filling the drain tube is acceptable. Can't quite see returning hard earned reflux back into the boiler for reprocessing."

Just sayin',
squidd
Gentlemen,
With all due respect to the experts here, squidd is on the right track on this one. I recently visited Stone Barn Brandy Works (http://www.stonebarnbrandyworks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) and the external pipes and valves on their professional still was for their CIP. Clean In Place system. It was so the cleaning water could be controlled to specific trays. The owner demonstrated this for me.

The contactors, trays, plates, or whatever folks are calling them were drained with a different lever.

It feels like too much effort and expense to have external valves to just disable a tray. Why add extra pipes for liquid to travel through when it could just drop through a hole in the tray. What about a well designed drain for the trays?

-Lawrenceburg Native, admitted novice.
LN,

+1 on what OD and VB have said.

Plus, not only the cleaning water can be "controlled to specific trays", but also the reflux.
Plus, if the external plumbing is already in place for CIP, why the additional internal complications ?

Cheers,
squidd
violentblue
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

most CIP systems use a spray ball, so wouldn't work well for redirecting reflux. however the plate drains would be good for flushing the plates. add in a recirc pimp and add a little citric acid to the mix and she'll be clean as a whistle in no time.
Centimeter
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Centimeter »

I was wondering, wouldn't directing reflux from one plate to another plate mess up the equilibration of the column? I thought a plate was more of a thermal environment rather than a physical plate. If you direct cooler condensate from a higher up plate to a lower plate, aren't you essentially making two plates with the same/similar thermal environment, thus negating the "plate"? It seems to me that a more stable approach would be to send it all back to the boiler and have it start over again.

I'm still wondering about the diameter of the bypass line too. I see in the professional stills that it's really thin compared to the bubble cap column. What are potential pros and cons of this? Why not have a bigger bypass column? I guess it would make sense if it was just to direct cleaning fluid through the column... Furthermore, when these pros drop 100,000.00 on a still, are they really going to be tinkering with turning plates on and off? If I was going to spend that kind of money, you better believe I'd know exactly how many plates I needed from the get-go.
apollopimp
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by apollopimp »

what some of the pros do is they have there still with say 15 plates and they will use all plates for high abv neutral but they might also want something with less abv and more flavor so they will also have it set up so they can pull off say the 9th plate or what ever plate they have figured gives them what they want.. so yes in the end they really know what they need and they have payed good money for it..

so what is going on in this topic is we are trying to achieve/create what the pros have with minimal cost
Mr.Spooky
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Mr.Spooky »

its all new,, and unexplored, if you got an idea, just give it a shot. at this point, there are no "real answers". if you have a thought,,, or theory,, give it a try, and eigther eliminate it, or build on it! kodos to OD and sam and everyone else who isnt afraid to waist a little time and copper :D !!!
spooky
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4" plate column >>>[/color] the flame that burns twice as bright only burns half as long
Samohon
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

And that is what OD and the rest of us are trying to do here apollopimp... Create a compact plated still for the home distiller, that gives the best of both worlds. Plate disabling is a theory that is much debated, it has many differing designs, some of them are just not feasible for the home distiller, so we brainstorm it out and come up with a design that, in its conceptual stage looks very credible, only to find out way on down the road when were putting it into practice, it never worked as intended... The method of debate in this thread, eliminates most of the pitfalls and ensures that we cover all avenues open to us... OD has a great proven design that works, now its up to all interested to make it even easier for the stiller to build one of these baby's...

By the end of this thread we will have a detailed set of plans, with many different ways to achieve the build for the home distiller. That is the goal...

and so it continues...
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squidd
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by squidd »

[quote="violentblue"

...a spray ball...
... plate drains would be good for flushing the plates...
... add in a recirc pimp ...[/quote]

Ahhh, spray balls.
Should have looked up CIP before I spoke.

Would'nt the connections to the drain pipe also allow plate flushing ?

What's a "recirc pimp" ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

squidd
The Baker
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by The Baker »

squidd wrote:[quote="violentblue"

snip

What's a "recirc pimp" ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

squidd
One who has spent some time in gaol and is getting back into the business...?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Lawrenceburg Native »

violentblue wrote:most CIP systems use a spray ball, so wouldn't work well for redirecting reflux. however the plate drains would be good for flushing the plates. add in a recirc pimp and add a little citric acid to the mix and she'll be clean as a whistle in no time.
-nozzles of various types are also available for cleaning the inside of containers.

-LN
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Lawrenceburg Native »

What about a tray drain that is covered with a thin piece of copper sheet, attached to a SS rod that penetrates the column wall? Push the SS rod to close the drain. Pull the rod to move the copper sheet cover, opening the drain. -LN.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

Cleaning systems are valid on larger commercial stills where dissmantling would be a problem, but this design is a home keg based still which is easy enough to remove from the keg and hose through with clean water.
The design is for a plate dissabling system and on my still it will stay that way.


OD
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