New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

[DIYhooch]

Hi guys, great updates all,

I am gathering components for my build now (scored some 6" pipe today) and just had a question, as this will be my first still that is completely bolted and/or soldered together with no flour seal anywhere I want to install a pressure gauge on the boiler, I have three choices a 15psi, 25psi and a 35psi, all are the same in every other respect.

I have no idea what sort of pressures these flutes run at (I am guessing just a few psi) so should the 15psi gauge be plenty?

Thanks,
DIY

[guittarmaster]

rock on then.... I have 40" of 2" copper left over from my twins build. I"m gonna start put an easy flange on the bottom. Here I go.....

[Usge]

gm, The only "real" change I can remember I did from the original template I posted was that the fold on the plate for the downcomer was too short. Needs to be 1/4" in from outer edge/center on 2" in order to fit perfectly against the sidewall with the plate in. I made those bends by using exacto knife to edge in the mark 1/4" in. Then put it in a vice..clamped right at the mark and started tapping away with a hammer till it bent good. Then turned it around in the vice the other way and bent it up square. I updated the tempate...I'll try and post it later.

Another tip for your 2" build: I used the disc spin/file trick using multiple plates at the same time. I put 2 rough cut, center drilled disc blanks same size hole as the bolt, then put them on a bolt with 2 washers and 2 nuts to keep it tight. Stick the bolt thread in the end of your drill...and spin it, holding a flat file against the edge. If you don't have a drill press (like me), I used my bench vise, put the drill in it upside down. I kept a piece of 2" with the edges filed flat to check the fit (just unchuck the bolt and check until it fits good and snug...(warning...it gets hot). You can spin 4 discs at a time. Just keep the file square and flat to them and make sure it hits all of them. This is how I did my shotgun condenser...since they need to be exact (holes, etc). I spun 2 discs together as above using small bolt and nuts to hold themtogether tight. Then, I left them bolted together in the middle...and put them in a vice 1/2 showing at a time...clamped to a piece of wood. And I drilled the holes straight through both at the same time. I just eyeballed it. This way...no matter "what" you do (a little off with the drill bit wandering, etc) they both come out exactly the same.

When I put the downcomer in, had to tap the plate in/down....fit was "tight". Set it down to the desired depth . I set my plates 5/8 to 7/8" deep..giving it good bubble room before it starts to drain off. When i trimmed out blanks with shears to the template size...ie right to the edge of it, it still took a good 20-30 mins on the drill, checking often, to get it just right. But, if you do all them at once...you'll have them all drilled/centered exactly the same, and be done in one shot.

You can't screw it up as long as you work slow and check it fairly often for fit.

Here's a newer version of the 2" template:

2in_DWV_Template_v3.pdf

[squidd]

.....I have no idea what sort of pressures these flutes run at (I am guessing just a few psi) so should the 15psi gauge be plenty?

Thanks,
DIY

It depends on what kind of trays you have, and how many, but likely less than 1 psi.
You'll get more meaningful readings on a gauge calibrated in inches of H2O.

squidd

[Barney Fife]

as this will be my first still that is completely bolted and/or soldered together with no flour seal anywhere I want to install a pressure gauge on the boiler,

Better yet, consider adding a simple 1/2" or 3/4" Copper or Stainless Steel swing check valve. There are nice and simple, no springs or anything to go wrong wrong with them. They take more than a few lbs of pressure to open up, and wouldn't "bleed-off' vapors during a run, unless the still itself became plugged up for whatever reason, where they would open up and save your ass. Put a bit of piping on the end of it to direct any possible overflow downward, and maybe even add a catch-can at the end of the piping so nothing gets spilled, even.

Just add the check valve between the boiler and column(tee straight off and up of pipe between the boiler and column) as close as you can to the boiler, and forget about it. Or add it directly to the top of the boiler if you have the means to attach it.

We should all be using one, and recommending that others do, also. Cheap insurance!

here's a link to a 3/4" one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-Swi ... 1c1599121b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They look like this:

[DIYhooch]

Thanks for the information guys regarding pressure in the still, it has given me several ideas to investigate.

I have another question regarding the height of fluid on each plate (which is determined by the height of each weir), reading back through the thread it seems that the 20mm is somewhat of an arbitrary number, since I am using 6" pipe should I vary this height, or is the more important issue the difference in height between the level of fluid (ie height of weir 20mm) and the height of the slots cut in the bubble cap (15mm, ie a difference of 5mm) since this dictates how much fluid the rising vapor has to pass through on each plate, should I vary this number when going to 6" pipe?

One other question about the distance between plates, does anything dictate how little this can be (other than physical limitations of fitting all the internal components in and the sight glasses).

Thanks,
DIY

[olddog]

I have another question regarding the height of fluid on each plate (which is determined by the height of each weir), reading back through the thread it seems that the 20mm is somewhat of an arbitrary number, since I am using 6" pipe should I vary this height, or is the more important issue the difference in height between the level of fluid (ie height of weir 20mm) and the height of the slots cut in the bubble cap (15mm, ie a difference of 5mm) since this dictates how much fluid the rising vapor has to pass through on each plate, should I vary this number when going to 6" pipe?

As long as you keep the slots in the caps below the weir height you can go as deep as you like if you want to make it a bit more thumperish, but 20mm will be fine for 6"tube.

One other question about the distance between plates, does anything dictate how little this can be (other than physical limitations of fitting all the internal components in and the sight glasses).

Anything between 4-6"is fine, with a 6"tube I would be inclined to go for 6" gap.


OD

[sammybear]

Hey olddog, did you ever get to test how it ran with just the top plate going?

[DIYhooch]

Must be a busy time of year, anybody have any progress reports?

I have gathered all the materials for a 6" 6 plate (just missing a 10" long piece of 6" pipe for the shotgun dephleg, have a bit of 5" i might use but would prefer to find a 6" piece and cut it down instead of making the 5" bigger).

My plans have been put on hold slightly as I have got myself a miller tig welder and have signed up for a tig welding course.

[The Baker]

Must be a busy time of year, anybody have any progress reports?

I have gathered all the materials for a 6" 6 plate (just missing a 10" long piece of 6" pipe for the shotgun dephleg, have a bit of 5" i might use but would prefer to find a 6" piece and cut it down instead of making the 5" bigger).

My plans have been put on hold slightly as I have got myself a miller tig welder and have signed up for a tig welding course.

That's so big you could probably easily weld it up out of a bit of flat stainless with discs for the top and bottom (which would make it hold its shape).

[Usge]

DIYhooch, I've been straightening out my dephlegm issues (another thread). Think I have it straightend out now. I'm doing my first spirit run today, using 4 plates, and I'll report back later as to results.

Update: just took off fores @ 93%

Looks like the dephlegm is working. More later

Here are the results of the run on 4.5 gals low-wines (3 gal UJSM, 1 gal mixed barley, .5 gal water to bring it to 40%)

240ml of fores 93% (Vapor temp 178F, Water temp 112F)
1 - pint 92.5% V=179+, W=130F
2 - pint 92% V=140+ (distillate streaming now) W=140F
3 - pint 90.5% V=179+, W=145F
4 -300ml 90% (emptied parrot)
5 - pint 90% V=180F, W=160F (water flow out of balance, restabilized)
6 - pint 91% V=180F, W=140F (distillate back to dribble)
7 - pint 90% V=180, W=150F
8 - pint 89% V=180, W=160F (adjusted water flow up slightly)
9 - pint 91% V=180, W=150F
10 - pint 89% V=180, W=160F (re-equalized for a couple mins)
11 - pint 91% V=179, W=120-160F (tails)
12 - pint 85% V=186, W=178F (can no longer hold temp, turning off water and flushing out rest of tails)

The good news was...my new dephlegm was very responsive. Slight adjustments, which happened quickly, could bring the proof back and stabilize things. The bad news was there was a small leak right at the join of the needle valve into the dephlegm that was causing some surging. I tied a rag around it, but could still here it sucking at the rag. The distillate was coming out it in "lots"..ie., drip, dribble, stream, pause...repeat. I'm guessing this was probably because of the leak. But, despite the variances, it managed to hold/stabilize along the way for good bits of time. Which brings me to the other bad part...despite finally getting some flow-rate, etc., dailed in...the run still took over 9 hours start to finish. And the distillate was rather disappointing —I got about the same flavor range as I do on a potstill...ie., lots of heads, a couple middle jars, then tails. The only difference was...at 90%...the heads are intense, the middle was scratchy/bitter, and the tails taste chemical. Could be it just needs to be cleaned some more. But, I experienced similar results running my boka in potstill mode. So, I don't think my bubble plates are working like they should. (ie., I'm not seeing any heads/tails compression).

[mash rookie]

Must be a busy time of year, anybody have any progress reports?

I have gathered all the materials for a 6" 6 plate (just missing a 10" long piece of 6" pipe for the shotgun dephleg, have a bit of 5" i might use but would prefer to find a 6" piece and cut it down instead of making the 5" bigger).

My plans have been put on hold slightly as I have got myself a miller tig welder and have signed up for a tig welding course.

I dont think you would need to enlarge your deghlag past 5" The space around it is no different than the shotgun tubes through it. The outside of a 5" will cool vapor better than having it fit tight to the walls. It actually might work better by having more surface area for vapor contact. It think it would be more responive to adjustments durring a run.

I didnt use my TIG when I built my new flute. Hard solder and soft solder were just the ticket. I would probably use it if i were going to build a boiler.
MR

[Usge]

Here's the next run on 5 gals of 8% all barley. I was hoping to be able to single run some nice all-grain...so this was a test to see how things went with lower abv. It's about like I thought.
I had no leaks this time

When it first started dripping...I reduced the heat to Medium (gas), and upped the water flow. It went into full reflux (yea!)

I let it equalize for about 15 mins. Then, reduced the water flow and let the temp of the water rise till I started getting drips. According to my notes...this happened quickly..ie,. it started to drip.
At that point, Vapor temp (V) was 172F and the water temp (W) was about 100-102F. I dripped off the fores like this...very slowly. Water got out of balance here and there and I had to make a few adjustments.
I took 120ml of fores at V=177F/W=150F (2-3 drops per sec). From there it went like this:

1 - 200ml V=178 W=160F 90% (adjusting heat up slightly to Med-Hi and water flow down to stream distillate)
2 - 200ml V=180 W=140 90%
3 - 200ml V=180 W=150 86% (adjusted water to maintain stream)
4 - 200ml V=184 W=160 85%
5 - 200ml V=186 W=160 82% (re-equalized for 15 mins, then reduced water flow, raised heat to get it to flow again)
6 - 200ml V=182 W=160 87%
7 - 200ml V=186 W=168 70% (Flushing tails out, turned water off)
8 - 300ml V=204 W=190 40%
9 250ml (emptied parrot)

Total run time...start to finish was about 5.75 hours.

A couple of observations here. First, again, from thumper, to boka, to CM, to this bubbler...I'm simply not having "any" luck running lower abv wash. It's very hard to stabilize, and there's simply not enough alc to make them work properly. That's confirmed now on 4 different stillhead designs running 5 gal still charges. So, I have NO idea how people who run 5 gal still charges are doing this..unless we just simply have different opinions about what the above results mean. Second is, I'm getting about the same amount of heads/tails as I do on any run (potstill included) which is not what I expected. Third is..running this hard...I can taste more "tails" taste in the middle. It's pulling tails..just like a potstill...only then trying to clean them up and run the proof up. Out of this run, the only keepable jar was jar 5 — it was sweet (grain sweet, not heads sweet), smooth and flavorful, although had a strong "tails" flavor to it. . Everything else...was clearly contaminated with either heads or tails.
Can anybody explain that?

Finally, I'm about done tinkering with this...I think I've done about all I can for it and I've tried running it slow/hard, etc..with different abv still charges and I think I understand it. The dephleg seems to be working well. It's just not producing the results I wanted/expected for distillate — even with 4 plates. Given there's no way for me to run a 15 gal keg and 4" flute off my stovetop to compare....I have no way to know how this compares with anybody else's results. Everybody seems to LOVE the distillate they get...ie., it's clean, soft/smooth, higher proof with flavor. I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a potstill run at higher proof...where the middle is very small, and the rest is nasty at such higher proof. I "do" see it respond to the dephleg...ie., the proof goes up, etc. But, that doesn't change the "flavor" of it, or more appropriately, the point in transition that it happens to be at (ie., tails at higher proof, or lower proof..take your pick). I've got a theory about this...but will save that for a post in another thread as it has nothing to do with this particular still, etc.. I've learned a LOT on this build..and I thank everybody who's helped me along the way...could not have done it with your help, inspiration and encouragement.

I'll keep trying...but I think the next step, beyond repeating more runs on this and see if anything changes , would be to take the head/shotgun dephleg that I now have dialed in good...and put it on a tube (ie., CM/hybrid) and test it that way for comparison. I had been wanting to do this test for a long time...and perhaps some of you had been looking for that kind of heads up test as well. I'll take suggestions for testing paramters (ie., packed with copper, unpacked, insulated, etc.) and I'll post results in another thread.

[HookLine]

I'm simply not having "any" luck running lower abv wash.

That is also my experience on a basic pot still. Had much better success with doing a bunch of low wine runs, then a combining them for big spirit run.

[Usge]

On what size pot hook? I have a 7.5 gal pot..that I run 5 gal charge out of. From what I read...seems most people running at least 10 gals or more of wash out of their 15 gal kegs...get by ok single running it for reflux. Refluxing makes the problem even worse on a small still charge...cause you are extracting what little alc there is..in higher abv.

[HookLine]

50 litre boiler. (13 gallons?)

Your boiler size is probably most of the problem.

It is not as big a problem on a pot as for reflux, but I still got the shits trying to do single runs on a pot still, so much effort for relatively little return. A full charge of low wines is so much better, for me anyway, YMMV. Some prefer the taste of single runs, which is fine, just more work.

[olddog]

I still got the shits trying to do single runs on a pot still, so much effort for relatively little return.

Just run 25lts of neutral yesterday with a bag of botanicals suspended in the boiler and using Flute Mk11, it took me three and a half hours, and gave me two and a half litres @ 90ABV, nice and clean and full of flavor. Just diluted and bottled this morning after airing overnight, I ended up with 8 750ml bottles of nice gin @ 40ABV.



OD

[Usge]

.... nice and clean and full of flavor. ...OD

This is the part I'm having trouble with. All together I took a little over half gallon off that 20L wash I ran. Out of that...only about 200ml of it was even remotely drinkable. The rest was terrible. If you put it in your mouth...you'd spit it out . My friend called it "Mother in Law" mean. Other than that small problem ....my little 2incher seems to be working. I can pull 90% easy on a run of low-wines and hold it. The problem is the distillate doesn't taste good, and seems to follow a potstill run in flavor ...long transition through heads....couple middle jars...then right into tails. ONly...it's at 90%...makes it all taste like battery acid.

The one thing I would say...operationally, is that the little 2 incher definitely can't keep up with those flow rates. I did manage to get it dialed where it would "flow" distillate when there was enough alc in the pot. But, running low abv wash...I'd have to really choke it down after the first couple pints in order to maintain 90%. As it was..the run took 5 hours. So, there is definitely something to the 4" that hits a sweet spot I think that the 2" just can't match. Since I dont' have room for a 4" and bigger pot. I'll just have to settle for envy and marvel at the results that you and others are getting on the 4" models.

[myles]

The dephleg seems to be working well. It's just not producing the results I wanted/expected for distillate — even with 4 plates. ...... I'm seeing a potstill run at higher proof...where the middle is very small, and the rest is nasty at such higher proof.

I have not run one (although I have run packed column hybrids) but this backs up my gut reaction.

I have always considered these to be a pot still with variable reflux. I think even the Holsteins and Karls, when run with 5 or less plates are treated as if they were pot stills.

When I ran the hybrid it was a case of low power to stabilise and run of the heads, and then increase power and reduce the cooling, to run the hearts as if it were a pot still - with the option of tuning the output to keg strength.

I would love to see a side by side comparison on a full sized keg boiler, of a packed column vs a flute. I suspect the results would show marked differences between the two.

[hackware]

now this was before i got into distilling (california booze is legal), but while working in a couple research labs, i saw small glass versions for plate stills (smallest was 3/4 inch or so)...

while i'm pretty sure they were "fractional" distilling other than ethanol, the principals look to be the same...

they spent a lot of effort in temperature control cooling of each plate (why i was there doing the trons work)...

each plate had it own take off valve port...

possibly we could take off foreshots and heads this way...?

[hackware]

(california booze is legal), ...?

explain.......

california, i lived there 30+ years, legal to buy, own, possess, and drink booze...

mississippi, i live here now, dry county, illegal to possess, own, drink, make or transport, drinking alcohol in any form...

where beer is legal in mississippi, state law limits abv to 5% or less...

brewing beer, making wine, and distilling drinking alcohol is illegal state wide...
(above and beyond federal laws)...

[LWTCS]

Jesus H. William

Get the hell outta there!

[hackware]

Jesus H. William

Get the hell outta there!

wish i could, but back on d farm, assisting elderly parents (83 and 89)...

farther had 2 heart attacks, mother 4 strokes...

mother not much time left i b afraid...

dis mississippi humidity is killing me...!

got my 3" x 36" tri-clamp spool in the mail today...!

(cough cough... wonder if my tri-clamp still b finished b4 i get my hands on a copper one...? )

[mash rookie]

.... nice and clean and full of flavor. ...OD

This is the part I'm having trouble with. All together I took a little over half gallon off that 20L wash I ran. Out of that...only about 200ml of it was even remotely drinkable. The rest was terrible. If you put it in your mouth...you'd spit it out . My friend called it "Mother in Law" mean. Other than that small problem ....my little 2incher seems to be working. I can pull 90% easy on a run of low-wines and hold it. The problem is the distillate doesn't taste good, and seems to follow a potstill run in flavor ...long transition through heads....couple middle jars...then right into tails. ONly...it's at 90%...makes it all taste like battery acid.

The one thing I would say...operationally, is that the little 2 incher definitely can't keep up with those flow rates. I did manage to get it dialed where it would "flow" distillate when there was enough alc in the pot. But, running low abv wash...I'd have to really choke it down after the first couple pints in order to maintain 90%. As it was..the run took 5 hours. So, there is definitely something to the 4" that hits a sweet spot I think that the 2" just can't match. Since I dont' have room for a 4" and bigger pot. I'll just have to settle for envy and marvel at the results that you and others are getting on the 4" models.

Are you saying the flavor does not compare to your results using the same barley wash with you previous still? why would the flavor be so different?

It may be too early for me to make any judgments, but I cant help but wonder if our flutes produce 90% with flavor because we run them so hard that the tails are coming through with the hearts. Does that make any sense? I haven’t ran anything but my UJSSM through her yet. I am still learning what this baby will do.

[hackware]

more flavor on plate stills could well b because they reflux in distinct steps, whereas packed columns break up the reflux into thousands of "mini-steps"...

also packing would allow much less particulates to migrate all the way to the top of the column, because they would be continuously washed downward with the condensed liquid...

jus think'n...

[Usge]

Are you saying the flavor does not compare to your results using the same barley wash with you previous still? why would the flavor be so different?

It may be too early for me to make any judgments, but I cant help but wonder if our flutes produce 90% with flavor because we run them so hard that the tails are coming through with the hearts. Does that make any sense? I haven’t ran anything but my UJSSM through her yet. I am still learning what this baby will do.

It's been different..and yes...seems like it tinges towards tails to me as well. At least so far. I've got 4 runs on it now doing both wash and low-wines. I've run it fast and I've run it slow. It didn't really seem to make much difference overall in regards to the taste of the spirit that I noticed. I'm yet to be satisfied with the flavor of the distillate mostly because it's very harsh...not so much because it's flavorful tinging towards tails. But, I do plan on doing more runs, different washes/mash, and see if anything changes.

[LWTCS]

The one thing I would say...operationally, is that the little 2 incher definitely can't keep up with those flow rates. I did manage to get it dialed where it would "flow" distillate when there was enough alc in the pot. But, running low abv wash...I'd have to really choke it down after the first couple pints in order to maintain 90%. As it was..the run took 5 hours. So, there is definitely something to the 4" that hits a sweet spot I think that the 2" just can't match. Since I dont' have room for a 4" and bigger pot. I'll just have to settle for envy and marvel at the results that you and others are getting on the 4" models.

There is still some missing information here for sure.
My still differs a couple different ways. One of which is that I am not running any 4" as a,,,,,,,,raceway.
That is to say that my vapor moves upward to the next plate via 1.5" (not counting the 2" at the first thumper). So I'm getting a goodly amount of vapor speed. The 4" merly holds the liquid till re distillation moves the vapor upward to the next plate.
So the entire top half of my outfit is only 1.5".

But like OD I prefer a 20 to 30 liter boiler charge of wash (with my full set up) cuz she renders proofy, smooth likker.

I strip when using the (Humper) thumper only and it kinda throws the ratios off a bit. Gets me out of my rythem.
But I gotta get the new boiler online before I can run my entire assembly together again.


And I also have a lot more liquid at each plate level. So I get a backlog of pretty high proof liquid at the top of my still waiting for the final flash before moving to the product condenser.

[mash rookie]

LWTCS,
Can you post a drawing of your set up? I am not quite getting your discriptions. I know it is inovative and would like to understand what the heck you have built.

[LWTCS]

Can you post a drawing of your set up?

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p6831483

Maybe when Samohon gets some free time he will be able to animate the thing.

Sorry for stepping all over this thread.

[Zxlork]

Not going to lie... just discovered this thread last night and feel cheated finally getting to the end. It's like missing the last 20 pages of a 200 page book.
Did Sam ever finish his flute? If so how were your results running it?
OD I'd love to hear more results on your runs. Maybe this was continued on a new build thread?