did I miss this?

[raildog]

I talked to a guy this weekend that operates a micro distillery about making better, more accurate cuts. His advice, for someone like me, was to delute it down to 30-40 percent before letting them set overnight before making cuts the next day....this seems to me to be a important detail I may have missed. Obviously I want to be able to make cuts by smell someday, but I'm not there yet. Any comments? Is this correct?
Another question. Can cuts be made deeper into the tails if the product is going to be aged for years in charred oak? I know oak smooths out some problems but I was wondering if oaking/ ageing is used to make otherwise undrinkable product something that can and is sold commerically? I guess I'm trying to figure out the economics of this industry. Thanks all, I'm trying not to ask stupid questions.

[rubber duck]

Yes, if you dilute it down you will be able to distinguish the cuts better. This is fine if your doing a vodka or something your going to leave white. If your going to age on wood your going to have to get better at making cuts as you want to age at a higher proof, 110 to 130.

On a barrel aged whiskey I go into the tails just until the whole batch has a very slight funk. This will turn into a much more complex whiskey then perfect cuts. Perfect cuts on an barrel aged product makes for some dull whiskey.

[raildog]

Thanks RD, you and Pint and Uncle Jess have taught me a bunch, and saved me a lifetime of trial and error. Again Thanks.

[Bagasso]

Maybe the guy was taking about watering down a sample. Maybe they have 5+ liter fractions instead of homestillers 100ml.

[rubber duck]

Ya that's a way you could do it to, just water down a small sample.

One thing to note on running it into the tails, if your not going to age it for a year then make your cuts clean. It takes time for the tails to develop into the complex flavors your looking for, if you don't give it time on the oak it will just taste skunky.

[raildog]

Yeah thats what I got out of this gentlemans advice, just take a small amount from each seperate jar, delute it down to 30-40 percent cover it with maybe a coffee filter and come back the next day and decide your cuts then.

[LWTCS]

But don't forget to reference the corresponding, undiluted counter part while evaluating.

[mash rookie]

I number eight water glasses and dilute corresponding samples to 80P after letting my distillate air for 12- 24 hours. It would be good to let the samples sit for 24 hours as well so the water and alcohol can blend. I have noticed no matter the water I use for diluting that I can still taste the water for 24 hours.
I am in agreement with RD. If cutting for a neutral, cuts must be tight. No heads, no tails in the blend. When I blend my UJSSM, I will add tails carefully until it just starts to taste funky, like I went just a little too far. The oak will smooth that bite and leave a rich flavor that only tails can give.

MR

[raildog]

Thanks for the invalueable advice guys, I sampled the stuff I put in the barrel last week and is already tasting better then when I made the cuts, I was afraid I was too greedy with my head cuts at 80%, it turns out I think I was pretty close. Again thanks

[blind drunk]

The oak will smooth that bite and leave a rich flavor that only tails can give.

I feel the same way about adding a good amount of transitional heads (if that's what we're still calling them). Once softened up by wood and time, they make a nice contribution to the overall profile. Hope I'm right

[Bull Rider]

I feel the same way about adding a good amount of transitional heads

When it comes to blending, in my opinion, heads are Satin's Anus. Just a tiny amount of heads can ruin a batch of UJSM. I know because I've made that mistake. I can taste too much heads forever.

Oaking may make it less pronounced, but it never seems to go away. I've made follow up runs with just hearts and tails to blend into previous batches that needed fixing.



Bull.

[blind drunk]

Just the good heads. The ones close to the hearts, and not necessarily all of them either. Not Satan's heads. I got some all grain aging and the good heads are releasing some nice stuff and the burn is dissipating to almost nothing. I almost reran this batch but thought I give it a whirl. It still needs more time, but it's heading in the right direction ... I think it might be the key to a sophisticated whiskey. Hope I'm right

I just thought of something - maybe it's tasting good because all of the head/tails recycling is paying some dividends? Just a thought.

[Dnderhead]

"When it comes to blending, in my opinion, heads are Satin's Anus."
with a pot still what is "heads" is a matter of perception.
as there is no defining line like a reflux.so any thing on the first half
can be heads and anything after can be feints/tales.how much to keep is up
to the distiller and is harts,what he does not keep is either fores/heads or feints/tales.
the feints or tales can go into the next run. the heads Id suggest to run
separate for neutral.so to argue about liking heads/fores in you product
do you mean anything in the first half? the first few oz/ml? the first quarts/litters?

[blind drunk]

All your points are well taken because they are true. Truth in blending is a matter of perception. I just know from drinking calvados that there's heads in there. Maybe they're hearts, but I can taste something that tells me that they are heads. Maybe I should say that they used to be heads, something one wouldn't normally add, but have since aged into something really flavorful, soft and without burn. I'm finding the same experience with an aging batch of all grain. I did it on purpose because I could taste something good in what was bad. On the flip side, I had a Crown Royal 6 months ago (cause I remember liking it, once, and I had no choice) and I thought, yuk, gross heads. Took me three hours to drink it. So I'm thinking, there's good heads and bad heads. Or maybe the good heads are hearts and the bad heads are Satan's Anus. That's all I know.

This must be off topic, sorry to the OP.

[Bagasso]

Actually aging increases ethyl acetate, the main fusel in heads and the reason for the burn, of course keeping it low before putting in the barrel will also mean less in the finished product. Just saying that a small amount may not make much of a difference in the end. Check this out:

http://www.sasev.org/journal-sajev/saje ... n.pdf/view

[blind drunk]

The burn is actually decreasing, for whatever reason. Is the writer talking about heads, I can't make heads or tales of it ...

[Bagasso]

The writer is talking about heads. Yes the burn decreases even though the acetaldehyde almost triples and the ethyl acetate almost quadruples. It starts off with 36 mg/l of acetaldehyde and 148 mg/l ethyl acetate.

At six years ethyl acetate is at 523 mg/l so 375 mg/l was created during the aging process. Would it really have made much of a difference if the unaged distillate had 133 mg/l or 163 mg/l (+/- 10%) when it was placed in the barrel?

The kicker is that it is said to be smoother. I think that is why Ayay came up with his 6 shots in an hour test. Doesn't matter what it tastes like, what does it feel like the morning after?

[Dnderhead]

ethyl acetate is not directly the cause of "bite" oxidized ethyl acetate makes acetaldehyde? and this "bites"
then this can be changed back into acetic acid/ethanol with a acid. ethyl acetate gives a "banana" or "fruity" flavor.

[Bagasso]

Well according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fault#Ethyl_acetate

The sensory threshold for ethyl acetate is 150–200 mg/L. Levels below this can give an added richness and sweetness, whereas levels above impart nail polish remover, glue, or varnish type aromas.

so I would think that would apply at over 500 mg/L.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fault#Acetaldehyde

The sensory threshold for acetaldehyde is 100-125 mg/L. Beyond this level it imparts a sherry type character to the wine which can also be described as green apple, sour and metallic.

which at 99 mg/L should be barely detectable.

In either case the distillate's roughness is diminished even though the actual amount of both of these increases.

[blind drunk]

Doesn't matter what it tastes like, what does it feel like the morning after?

If it tasted great, the morning doesn't matter ... as much.

[mash rookie]

I feel the same way about adding a good amount of transitional heads

When it comes to blending, in my opinion, heads are Satin's Anus. Just a tiny amount of heads can ruin a batch of UJSM. I know because I've made that mistake. I can taste too much heads forever.

Oaking may make it less pronounced, but it never seems to go away. I've made follow up runs with just hearts and tails to blend into previous batches that needed fixing.



Bull.

I am with Bull on this one. I am really careful on the heads cut and more liberal with tails on my UJSSM. Oak smooths a little tail bite. Neutral I am critical on both.
MR

[rubber duck]

I like to blend in a little of the early heads, just a very small amount. It gives it a good flavor kick after it's aged a bit. Not to much though, it's easy to over do it.

[Dnderhead]

ethyl acetate is responsible for banana smells /taste.its used as artificial banana flavoring..
if it is oxidized it can turn into acetaldehyde,witch can give the "heat,bite"
then this can be broke down to acetic acid and ethanol.(this is probably what is happening when aging)

if it smalls like nail polish remover/lacquer thinner,then you have acetone ,if i remember right this is from braking down of ketones?,manly caused by bacteria.

these are not the same thing..

[blind drunk]

if it smalls like nail polish remover/lacquer thinner,then you have acetone

I definitely don't add this part of heads/fores to my drinking likker

[Glock19Fan]

I guess it differs from still to still, as well as among different recipes.

I make no distincition, except for with neutrals, between heads and hearts. Not only that, but I usually include a quart of "tails", depending on the size of the batch. But after it is unpleasant to drink I quit.

I rarely drink white though, in fact I normally age for over a year in a charred oak barrel. It is after I age the spirit that I blend, and that is usually with smaller amounts of "hearts" only.

It is my opinion that most of the flavors I personally like after aging are in the later part of the heads and the early part of the tails. For me, hearts are mostly neutral, and after aging on wood, taste fairly simple. With the rest, it is more complex tasting, and even though I dont drink very often, I never get a hangover becuase of my spirit, assuming reasonable amounts of alcohol were consumed.

I always do my blending at barrel (or aged) proof, and from there I water it down. After blending, I let it age another month or two and let the water and alcohol settle. I cant say that I have diluted my spirits before blending, although it may be an interesting experiment to try.

[blind drunk]

I don't water down for blending, either

It is my opinion that most of the flavors I personally like after aging are in the later part of the heads and the early part of the tails. For me, hearts are mostly neutral, and after aging on wood, taste fairly simple. With the rest, it is more complex tasting, and even though I dont drink very often, I never get a hangover becuase of my spirit, assuming reasonable amounts of alcohol were consumed.

You have a way with words; that's what I was trying to say

Ed = spelling error

[Bagasso]

ethyl acetate is responsible for banana smells /taste.its used as artificial banana flavoring..
if it is oxidized it can turn into acetaldehyde,witch can give the "heat,bite"
then this can be broke down to acetic acid and ethanol.(this is probably what is happening when aging)

if it smalls like nail polish remover/lacquer thinner,then you have acetone ,if i remember right this is from braking down of ketones?,manly caused by bacteria.

these are not the same thing..

This isn't just my take on it, it is information from the internet. I did provide the links. Heres one more:

http://www.carefair.com/beauty/nails/na ... _1484.html

Ethyl Acetate
This chemical has been found as a substitute for nail polish removers that label themselves as non-acetone. Ethyl acetate is a fragrant colorless flammable volatile liquid ester made from ethanol and acetic acid. The chemical is also used in perfumes and as a solvent for plastics.

I have a hard time believing something that melts plastic isn't gonna have some bite no matter how fruity it smells.

ETA: I also think you are mixing up ethyl acetate with Amyl acetate. Amyl acetate is the fake banana smell/taste.

[Dnderhead]

it mite have some bite,even ethanol can bite and melt plastic. but this post seems to be what can or cant be included in aged product and what to look for..

[Bagasso]

This is true. I was just pointing out that aging increases ethyl acetate (something that the Chemist also posted a while back) so it is included no matter how you do your cuts because it is created in the barrel.

Also that, as the paper pointed out, even large amounts of ethyl acetate (when compared to hearts) seem to be covered up by the flavors created by the aging.

[blind drunk]

Also that, as the paper pointed out, even large amounts of ethyl acetate (when compared to hearts) seem to be covered up by the flavors created by the aging.

Is the paper saying that "hearts" are not influenced/covered over by the flavors created by aging?