Whoah, gifted LOTS of grapes!!

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Good evening,
so I was just given as many grapes as I can carry.
Frontenac gris and Brianna.
I can carry 3 20 gallon fermenters.
Whoah!
I was planning on doing a lot of whiskys, but plans change, dont they!

I have made many wines in the past, but not for stillin.
Plan is to crush grapes for juice, put in formenter, add yeast, nutrients ( and what else?) And then fermenting...

next, single run in my 15 gallon pot still, as of yet unmade, mind you (all pieces collected though)
And have a lot of brandy to experiment with aging.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions? I'm open and new to this. I've of course read the entire' fruits and vegetables' section already...
-green mtn
Also so that you all know, this will be my
First big project with thee new still (after cleaning runs, of course).

[GreenMTNfermenter]

A how to on the jellies, please...
I can imagine drinking brandy and eating something with the jelly of the same varietal. Sounds great!

[frozenthunderbolt]

crush with clean feet! Is the best way honest!

[Bushman]

What types of grapes do you have? Brandy is on my list of things to make in the future.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

crush with clean feet! Is the best way honest!

I may have to... Just found out that the press I was going to borrow is unavailable.
Erg. I could get my 3 year old to dance around in the grapes. Then I'd be fermenting on the skins and seed s. Not a problem, right? Large painters strainer bag after....

Other suggestions?

[Dnderhead]

ok if you have enough,after crushing,drain off all you can,make the "good stuff" out of this,,ferment what is left ,
and run off as grappa.."the poor mans drink"

[GreenMTNfermenter]

I think thats going to be my plan. what a way to build up drinking stock quickly!
Now, I'm off to pick up yeast, nutrient, maybe an enzyme?
As for type of yeast, I think I got it. Any thoughts on nutrient or enzyme use?

I WILL be posting pics documenting this process...
I still can't believe my fortune!

and the best part about it is I have 3 willing 3 year olds who will be volunteered to do the stomping photos galore!

[frozenthunderbolt]

Shouldn't need pectic enzyme or anything else with grapes. they are the complete package as far as fermentation goes!

[Dnderhead]

with the skins..just place in fermenter,,no yeast or anything should be needed.
old stile grappa.thats the way it was made,,foot stomped grape skins,they went from vineyard
to vineyard much like migrant farmhands,and they got the leftovers.

life gives you lemons make lemonade.in this case make grappa.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Dnder,
Do you mean no yeast is needed for the initial ferment of stomped grapes? I was thinking about the possibility of doing that...if I were to add a treat to them, then as I understand it, I certainly wouldn't need to add more yeast when making the grappa mash because there would be a nice yeast bed mixed with the remains of grapes, skins, seeds, lees, etc. yes?

[Dnderhead]

neither needs yeast, grapes have there own (the "bloom" or white powder on out side)
but you can add yeast if you want

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Is there a way to prevent or slow the second fermentation where the alcohol turns to vinegar? That would be a shame...
I am fermenting in 20 gallon food grade garbage bins, I'm worried that the tops are not air tight, which mighty hasten the vinegar fermentation...
Would adding a yeast inhibit the vinegar, rather than encouraging the wild yeasts/bloom?

[Dnderhead]

what you speak of is a infection, generally domesticated yeast? is hardier than wild and more vigueras.
some treat juice/must with potassium metaphosphate. this inhibits wild yeast and mold/bacteria growth.
but does not bother domesticated yeast.off hand I'm thinking its 1/8tea per 5 gallons.this dissipates while fermenting.
some mist while crushing.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Ok, thanks.
Newest question:
If, hypothetically, it took me longer to get to stomping and adding yeast to the grapes and there was slight smell of vinegar, would a side of camden tablets for 24 hours kill the infection and then I could pitch the yeast? I mean, I'm going to try it anyway. It wasn't really hypothetical. Erg. Theoretically, it should work, right?
I added camden last night. Tonight the plan is to aerate, by crushing more of the grapes, then pitch a lot of D47 wine yeast, then hope, looking for a slow long ferment, as I still haven't made the time to finish the still... Erg again.
-greenmtn

[Dnderhead]

many of the vintners mist the grapes after picking,,but they wont last long.the sooner you do the better.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Well, last night, I broke up the camden tablets and crushed up the grapes (the plan was to ferment on skin, seed and all) clearly I didn't put in enough camden because tonight there were some bubbles and a krausen had formed (I think thats what its called - a cap of the skins, etc.)anyway, I mixed in hydrated D47 wine yeast, punched down the cap and covered again.

due to the experimental nature of this project, my busy-ness (even more than usual for me), the fact that I got these grapes as a surprise, for free, and a few other issues, I'm breaking some of my past brewing/fermenting rules, so we shall see, right? Worst case I compost it all.

Thinking ahead, will a basic sanitizing solution liket iodine or bleach kill any infection, so I csn use these buckets for future mashes? I was hoping that these would be my dedicated fermenters...
Thanks
Green mtn

[Dnderhead]

if you like the buckets use them.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

--- Figured it was time for an update on this project ---

So, months ago, My 3 year old and I set to crushing and pressing the grapes and juice that had been fermenting. It all smelled really nice, I had 2 20 gallon food grade garbage cans almost full. I got one fully pressed and then about a quarter of the way through the second one, I (stupidly for the first time) tasted it. sour, like Vinegar. Not surprised, but bummed - i can't imagine that there is alcohol in there anymore.... I stopped pressing and composted the remaining bucket of grapes and looked at my ~10 gallons of grape vinegar and just had to laugh. oh well.

so, now, what to do with it all?
thoughts so far:
-some of it will definitely go to my vinegar cleaning run
-i am thinking about bottling some of it and giving it as gifts - wine vinegar is good for cooking
- other ideas?

one big question:
from my beer brewing days, vinegar in the brewing room is a big scary no-no, and i have had brewing friends who would just ditch equipment if naturally fermented vinegar got near them. I am hoping to not have to ditch this garbage can, as i was hoping it would be my part of my 3 can fermenter system (primary, secondary, aging/on bat.) What's the best way to clean, sanitize and otherwise get the vinegar (infection) out of the buckets so that i can safely use them for mashes? Secondly, who else has used food grade garbage cans as fermenters? I am thinking that i may need to find a way to completely air-proof the lid and then burn a hole in the lid for an airlock. for some reason, i thought that the quicker fermentations of mashes (as opposed to beers or wines) would decrease the need for absolute air-tightedness. Should have thought that one through...

I was just excited, I think that a 20 gallon fermenter would be a perfect size for doing UJSM fo my 15 gallon still...
greenmtn

[Dnderhead]

is wash ropey/slimy? you sure its not just dry?
as for disinfecting, star san,one step,iodophor.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Not ropey or slimy air can tell. interesting.
Any surefire way to tell?
I mean, it certainly tastes like vinegar...

[Pop Skull]

GreenMtn-

It sounds like you got yourself a nice acetobacter infection. I was looking at your posts from October and it looks like you had the grapes for a few days before crushing.

If you wait too long between picking and crushing you can get lots of secondary infections started, since grapes have so much sugar in them, and there's always some damaged grapes from the picking or transporting. The free run juice that's present is ideal for bacteria and the less desirable wild yeasts to set up shop. It's really best to crush your grapes as soon as you can and get your fermentation started ASAP.

Once crushed, it's probably a good idea to add about 30 ppm of potassium metabisulfite to inhibit any of the undesirable bugs. The condition of your grapes coming in will determine whether they need more KMB (say the grapes come in moldy or something). Myself, I wouldn't trust indigenous yeast from the grapes to take over the fermentation - I would inoculate with a strain of commercial yeast. After that, watch your fermentation and once it gets near the end, press off the juice, put it in carboys with airlocks.

When the overall fermentation is done - keep the wine away from oxygen. If the grapes had a chance to sit around, there are probably acetobacter spores present. If you give acetobacter access to oxygen, they go to town and start converting your alcohol into acetic acid.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

Pop Skull (and others),
that is exactly what i imagined had happened. As i wrote before, they were free so no loss, right?
That being said, what about my other questions?
* suggestions with what to do with about 10 gallons of wine vinegar?
* can the area and the buckets be cleaned of the acetobacter spores and such... it is in my basement, which is my major fermentation area. i am hoping that i won't need to buy new buckets or somehow sanitize my entire basement (pretty sure that i wouldn't have to do that, but erg, that would suck!
-greenmtn

[Dnderhead]

yes you can disinfect the buckets but the basement whould be a overwhelming task.
bacteria and yeast are also in the air.it whould be easier to disinfect fermenters and make sure to seal/air lock.