flavored runs gin rum /thumper info

[waylyn]

I am looking at trying some flavored runs gin rum etc. and was reading here that a thumper with juniper berries is the way to go, my question is would there be a minimum size of thumper in relation to my still which is a 70 ltr unit ( http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=21415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ) and are there any good plans here I can't find any but I am assuming they are here just missing them

[Tater]

Ive seen thumpers from same size as still to about 1/4 the size. I use one 1/2 size of my still

[waylyn]

Thanks Tater, i'll have to source a unit

[retlaw]

i am guessing that it is correct to have a basket above the liquid in the thumper with the plant produce?
and not have the plant material sitting in the liquid?
would the flavour be superior if there was a basket in the boiler to?
so it has two baskets of herbs to go through, boiler and thumper?
or is that not needed?

[LWTCS]

All of the above.
I use orange peel ,,roasted orange peel down in the liquid and get a wonderful carry over.
I have also macerated with the orange too long in the pantry and had to re-distill and still gotten a very delicate carry over...

Just try every thing....Your prolly not gonna hit the nail on the head the first time and if you do you may not know it for a few weeks/months or till ya try something else to give you a side by side reference for your personal taste.

[waylyn]

Got it all set to go, going to use birdwatchers recipe as my neutral base, I have read several methods on the parent site on Gin and I am more confused as to how much botanical is used per 20ltr wash.
I have built a system (the unique bombay saphire) or I could use this whereby I put the whole amount into the small pouch in the column.

method 1

(Gin botanicals for 20L turbo-sugar wash/ Reflux column
juniper berry - flat Tbsp
coriander - flat tsp
cloves - ½ dozen
anise - ½ tsp
fennell - flat tsp
cardamom - ½ tsp
lemon - 1" rind
lime - 1" rind
cassia / cinnamon stick - 3/4" fragment

I put the whole amount into the small pouch, which seems to be enough for one distillation run of approx. 20L of Turbo-sugarwash. This seems a very small amount, but it gives me enough taste. Be cautious with adding anymore - the juniper berries can be VERY dominant. Also, keep the cassia/cinnamon to a min. It can really give a burning sensation. What I have here is about right for me. The lemon and lime rinds are actually v. thin peels, not including the white fibrous stuff on their underside. Anis and fennel are approximately the same in taste. I did not crush any of these - simply put them into the pouch whole. When wiith Turbo-sugar wash, I put the botanicals into the column with the first (and only) distillation. As the ethanol is coming off at 94-96%abv I see no reason to run it through separately to get the botanicals in. )

The confusion sets in where I read further down the parent site

Method 2:

With the aim of formulating a standard model for gin botanical quantities for the homedistiller, here is a table of the botanicals used in 8 modern gins:
1) Tiger Gin
2) Gordon's Distilled London Dry Gin
3) Beefeater London Distilled Dry Gin
4) Plymouth Gin
5) Bombay Distilled London Dry Gin
6) Bombay Sapphire Distilled London Dry Gin
7) Mercury Gin
Juniper Green London Dry Gin
Botanicals used-------Gin Brand (see above)
-----------------------1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8
Juniper---------------yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes
Coriander-------------yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes
Angelica root---------yes---------yes---yes---yes---yes---yes---yes
Cassia----------------yes---yes---yes---------yes---yes---yes
Cinnamon--------------yes------------------------------------------
Liquorice-------------yes---------yes---------yes---yes---yes------
Bitter almonds--------------------------------yes---yes---yes------
Grains of Paradise----------------------------------yes------------
Cubeb berries---------------------------------------yes------------
Bitter orange peel----------------yes------------------------------
Sweet orange peel-----yes---------------yes---------------yes------
Lemon peel------------yes---------yes---yes---yes---yes---yes------
Ginger----------------------yes------------------------------------
Orris root------------yes---------------yes---yes---yes---yes------
Cardamon--------------yes---------------yes------------------------
Nutmeg----------------yes---yes------------------------------------
Savory----------------------------------------------------------yes
Calamus (sweet flag)-----------------------------------------------
Chamomile (?)------------------------------------------------------

The total amount of botanicals used is about 20-35 grams/litre. If we take the dominant botanical juniper as 'x', the proportions of the botanicals used is:
x = juniper
x/2 = coriander
x/10 = angelica, cassia, cinnamon, liquorice, bitter almonds, grains of paradise, cubeb berries
x/100 = bitter & sweet orange peel, lemon peel, ginger, orris root, cardamon, nutmeg, savory, calamus, chamomile.
If we use x = 20g then x/2 = 10g, x/10 = 2g, x/100 = 0.2g (200mg)

Some current gins do not have a pronounced juniper character as they are used for cocktails and are more of a flavored vodka - for this type of gin for 'x' use equal quantities for juniper & coriander (i.e. x = 20g composed of 10g of juniper & 10g of coriander)

The botanical are macerated in 45%abv neutral alcohol (usuallyfor 24 hours), redistilled and then diluted to 42%abv which is an optimal strength for holding the flavour of the botanicals. Only the middle run (80-85%abv) is used to produce a high quality gin. Plymouth Gin also comes in a 57%abv 'Navy Strength' and which is also the British 100 proof strength.

All gins include juniper as an ingredient along with other botanicals. Typically a fine gin contains 6-10 botanicals, although the Dutch Damask Gin has 17 and the French Citadelle Gin has 19 but this could be more for marketing reasons and has been criticised for lacking direction.

So if you can follow me on this the amount of botanicals the method 2 compared to method 1 is a vast difference in amounts used if I were to go with the Bombay Saphire method using the Gordons gin recipe with 20ltrs of was I hope to return around 6 ltrs of alcohol I calculate 120g of juniper alone not to mention the other botanicals, where the method 1 is using juniper berry - flat Tbsp?

I maybe way out or reading it all wrong but has anyone been down this road and could point me in the right direction.

Sorry for the long post

[Bushman]

Odin is really into making Gin but I don't think he uses a thumper. You might want to pm him!

[waylyn]

Thanks for the heads up Bushman I'll contact him right away

[astronomical]

Is that really a thumper in the pic or is it just a gin basket? Or both? If it was never charged would it eventually charge itself?

[Odin]

Okay Waylyn,

Got your message and I will step in. First, I put an old post you might find interesting. It gives some directions on gin making and also some history.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... a#p6913193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Now I think, after reading the long post with a lot of info from the parent site, you have made yourself a bombay like "in between" (sorry, English not perfect) herbs chamber. That is not a thumper. What actually happens is that a grain or sugar based spirit is distilled. Vapours rises up to the herbs chamber and extracts taste compounds & oils from the herbs (juniper and more). The vapour is not condensed in that chamber. It merely travels thru it. And after having traveled thru the herbs chamber, it is going to the product cooler.

I think this method is called "vapour infused gin making" in English. It gives a relatively light gin and is especially suited for gins with fruit skins (orange peel, lemon peel, mango peel). So if you are after a subtle gin, this is the way to go. In Dutch this is called "gebeide genever". And genevers that are "gebeid" are usually distilled twice "over the herb". Just to get more taste over.

This herbs chamber is nothing more than a gin basket. In both, herbs are put in and vapour comes thru.

Now it is not clear to me if you already have built a herbs chamber. But if you didn't, don't bother. Well, I mean, it is a lot more work than just adding a gin basket, right? But if you did, you have something that will hold more herbs for sure.

So a question I have is: what still you using? And do you or don't you (yet) have a herbs chamber made?

Some more on gin. You can use a turbo (so I read in the thread) sugar wash. I would always make a neutral first. Cuts, fractions, the works. I see a lot of people doing their spirit run and gin run in one try. Not good and I will tell you why. The most delicate tones come over first. Do you really want to throw these out with fores & heads? No ...

If you have a column and a fractionating one at that (boka, vm, cm) you can put a hops sack filled with herbs in the top of your still. It works. But does it give off a lot of taste? In my opinion (and I tried it twice) not. The numbers of the guy telling this on the parent site (25 liters of turbo sugar wash with one table spoon of juniper beries) must be off. It gives only a hint of flavour. Not enough.

Personally, I love to distill with the herbs in the boiler. In the likker, actually. Gives off lots and lots of taste. Only thing is its not the best if you are after orange, lemon, mango tastes. It is not bad for the peels, only the tastes don't come over so clear.

And why use a birdwatcher's as the basis for your gin? Mistakenly most think that gin is actually vodka with herbs. It is not. Vodka is originally triple distilled grain likker (or potato based likker) without herbs. Genever is the same, only gets a fourth distillation introducing the herbs.

If you want to make something really nice, why not use Rad's All Bran recipe? You can fractionate a vodka out of that. It will have a slight taste of grains and plenty of mouthfeel. If you distill that with herbs, you get something extra.

Some more advice. Sorry, don't want to be obknoxious (wtf?). Just getting all warmed up here.

Start making your gin, not somebody elses. Start with just juniper and see how intense you like it. Than add another herb and progress from there. I see so many complex gins around, that I wonder: did they get that right in one go? How much, which combinations? Not possible if you use like 10 different herbs, I think.

Okay, I am actually waiting to hear from you on your column and what you have built so far. Just giving some extra info that might come in handy.

How much to use. Hot compounding (distilling "on the herbs"): 20 to 35 grams of herbs. Macerate for 12 to 24 hours. Cold compounding (if my English is correct - macerating but taking herbs out before distilling): macerate the same amount as before. Up to a week. Take out herbs, distill (good for when you have an element in your boiler).

20 grams is more than enough. I usually go for 30 grams per liter. And then I find myself adding a lot of extra neutral to make all the oil dissolve.

How much for vapour infusion? Don't know. I think that 20 grams per liter of say 35% likker is enough though. That would mean that on a 10 liter charge in your boiler, you mite add 200 grams of herbs. That's what I would do ...

Last tip, for now: always collect the first 10 mls seperately and throw away. Much, much juniper oil in there. Will cloud your likker otherwise.

Okay, another one: why not pot distill your final round? Or put your cm/lm/vm in as close to a pot mode as possible? The abv slowly getting lower will take out different components at different abv's. Adds to complexity.

Okay, curious to know what you made and how you want to run (and with what equipment). With that info we can make another step forward!

One more: lightly crush the juniper berries. And get fresh ones, ones when you squeeze them, give a little oil.

Odin.

[waylyn]

Yes it's a gin basket not a thumper

[Odin]

How do you heat? If you do it without an element, you mite make for a combination approach. Berries, roots in the boiler, peels in the gin basket. Best of both worlds?

[waylyn]

My boiler has a 3kw element inside,

HI Odin, Where would you place the herbs, I mean I would think they would burn inside the boiler, I have a small chamber buthat I was going to place insice the column but I was working on the 1 tbl spoon of juniper berries so that is no good, as I made this before I found out the measurement are off P.S. I have also made a gin basket, also I only have dried juniper berries at the moment will this be ok for now

[Odin]

It is a boka, right? LM. If you can easily detune it by taking out the pakking, that would give you space enough to put a bag with gin herbs in. I don't have a boka, so don't know how difficult this is. Maybe hang a bag (cotton) from your condenser coil down? No, probably not, because the slanted plates are in the way. You might put them in the lowest part of the column. Again in a bag. But then you need something, some kind of gasket to hold it in. Other solution might be that you hang the bag in the vapour: under the column but above the boiling liquids. You need a hook or something to attache it to.

You have an internal element. This means distilling with herbs in the liquid you distill will give you scorching. Don't want that.

If you want to consider cold compounding, that would solve all your issues. Add herbs to 35% neutral (or grain based). Let them macerate for an week at room temp. Fitler thru coffee filter. Distill.

Hope this helps.

Can you confirm that I judge your rig correctly? And maybe tell me if you see some points inside that can be used as hooks for attachment?

Odin.

PS: Dry juniper and other herbs: be careful that they don't swell too much. Especially if you want to place them in the column. May block refluxing water off and flood your column.

[waylyn]

Yes I could take out the packing, but I was thinking of running in pot mode by taking away the column I would still be able to secure the herbs inside a bag in the column no probs, I don't have slanted plates I used a T piece and calibrated the collection to hold 1.5 fluid ounces. But if I used my gin basket I wouldn't be using any of that,is there a problem if I ran it in pot mode without the column then from the top of the boiler it goes directly into the gin basket ( a converted pressure cooker and then from the basket to a condensing unit

Just read it back how can I take the column away and still put herbs inside it sorry for the confusion, I want to run it if possible direct from boiler to gin basket with herbs inside then direct to pot condenser, I hope that makes more sense

[myles]

I would be inclined to go with this approach. Run your column to get your clean base spirit. Dilute that and recharge the boiler without the column, switch instead to a basic pot still.

Imagine a variation of a puke box filled with your botanicals. If you wanted to you could put it inline and above your boiler, or just have it higher than your condenser. It means doing two runs instead of 1 but is that such a big deal.

[waylyn]

That's the sort of thing I had in mind, the basket is higher than the boiler is there any reason why you would place your basket above the condenser

Thanks for all advice

[Odin]

Waylyn,

That's the way to go!Didn't know you could turn you rig in a pot still, but what you want to do makes perfect sense.

Odin.

[waylyn]

Odin, do you have a recipe that works for you I understand when you say experiment but the first one I do I would like a tried recipe even if it's not to my taste I would prefer one that's been done

[myles]

Waylyn you have 2 basic options.

1. Basket above the boiler, vapour in the bottom and out the top, any condensation that forms on the botanicals goes back into the boiler.

2. Basket higher than the condenser, vapour in the top and out the bottom, any condensation that forms on the botanicals ends up in your product.

Both should give you a different product to macerating the botanicals in hot liquid, and I suspect there will be a difference in flavour between the two. Choice may just be a matter of convenience.

[waylyn]

Thanks Myles, got you with all the info I have now I can't wait to get enough neutrals to give it a go

[Odin]

Waylyn,

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... a#p6913193

This one is slightly lighter and a personal favorit of mine:

- 3 liters to 40% diluted neutral;
- 56 grams juniper berries;
- 21 g chopped / crushed coriander seeds;
- 1.5 grams of licorice root;
- 3 g St. John's Wort;
- 1.5 grams elderberry;
- 0.5 grams cardemon.

The licorice may get over pretty hot in the beginning. You mite settle for less than a gram. Heat will get less over a few weeks ...

Good luck and please let me know how you are progressing. We should do more on gin!

Odin.

[jake_leg]

The licorice may get over pretty hot in the beginning. You mite settle for less than a gram. Heat will get less over a few weeks ...

I didn't know that! But my first batch of gin has mellowed a lot, and that might explain it.

[waylyn]

Odin your a star thanks
How do you do yours with a gin basket or the herbs in the boiler?

[Odin]

@Waylyn:
Always with the herbs in the boiler! Just my thing ... but not feasible with an electric element in the boiler.

@Jake:
Liquorice is so easy to overdo. It will mellow out over time, but I remember the first time I used it. I put in like 1 gram per liter. Drank the gin after a few days. It was like eating hot Thai food. Not at first. Nose is mostly juniper (and fruits if you use peel), taste makes other herbs & roots shine thru as well. It is in the "aftermath"(?) that the hot liquorice starts burning. Stupid thing is ... I actually like it. Not that much, so I detuned a bit. But it does give a nice rough edge on an otherwise smooth (almost sweet) likker. It is my favorite drink to serve my Hungarian family in law. Over there, a drink is only a drink if it gives you blisters in your throat, if you get what I mean. So when I serve them genever, at first it is like: "did you sweeten it?" (no, but fresh juniper has a kind of almost sweetening effect). And then, like two, three seconds, when the liquorice kicks in, I hear them say: "... or maybe you didn't". Funny thing is: by now it is my genever they really enjoy. More than my whiskey or vodka.

Odin.

[waylyn]

Hi Odin,I'm distilling the birdwatchers now so tomorrow I know you said all bran would be better but not got any made at the moment, so I will try my gin basket with your recipe

Here are some pics of my gin basket ( converted pressure cooker ) let me know if you think this will work on top of my still, would the vapours carry the flavours throught the top to the condenser and into my collection unit or will they just sit in the bottom of the gin basket?

[Odin]

Birdwatchers is no problem. It goes with the current definition of gin being a neutral with herbs. My point is ... it isn't. Gin originally is a light whiskey with herbs. All Bran, fractionated, is close to neutral. But the risidual taste & great mouth feel will add to the experience. If you are exited about your first BW type disstillings, just try it All Bran style, to see if you like that. I think you will.

And if you do, why not double distill an All Bran instead of fractionating it? And use that as a basis for what you can now call a "old style" genever or (were you to make it out of an all grain): "Korenwijn".

"Just try". I think that's the motto for gin making. Maybe start with the most important ingredient (the likker), then the amount of juniper, then coriander, then the herbs, then the fruits, then the roots. That approach worked for me. Gave me a not so complex (in terms of "what is in it") type of genever. But it is good! Scored me 92 point on the 100 scale by a pro tasting panel. On my fractionated All Bran that was. My "Korenwijn" is so full of body, I am still looking for the right amount and sort of herbs/berries ...

Odin.

[waylyn]

Got you, I havent made all bran for some time now but I certainly will give i a go, a bit dissapointed in my birdwatchers it's betwen 55-60% abv which is the lowest run i've ever had

[Odin]

So If I look at the pic, it is gasses in from the left and out from the top. And from there to your product cooler? Gasses coming from your potstill?

If my deductions are correct, I think your basket (herbs chamber would be a better word!) is big enough! You have something in the cooker as well. Don't know the name. Not really needed, but it may help getting the herbs with their feet of the floor, so to speak. You will get some liquids getting trapped at the bottom of the chamber. No problem. Looks like it it good to go. When can you show a piccie of the whole set up? Curious!

Odin.

[waylyn]

Yes you are right, the gasses in on the side bottom and out through the top into a condenser, the thing inside is a sieve with the handle cut off, I though if I lifted the herbs of the floor the vapours would pass throuh the herbs and continue to the condenser and bingo gin in collection unit. But if you think it would be better on the floor of the basket i can easily remove the fine mesh sieve