Rye Help???

[Cvoss]

Ok so I made a few pretty good batches (in my opinion) with barley and wanted to try something different. I want to make a rye whiskey. I did a search on here and didnt find much, so any help would be appreciated..
I was thinking of doing 70 rye and 30 corn, does that sound right? I'm assuming rye has to be malted like barley? Is there different "rows" in rye and if so what would you suggest i use? I would try and get pre malted Rye. Lastly cooking, I assume i would cook the corn first at a higher temperature and then the rye when it gets cooler, does anyone know this process? Times, temps?
Once again ANY help or input would be greatly appreciated.
thanks

[Dnderhead]

any "raw" grain needs to be crushed and cooked (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=16799)
then add crushed malt or enzymes.with rye i like to do a 2 step mash.
after cooking cool to 100f/66c add malt let it rest for 1/2 hour or more then rise the temperature to 155f/68c
and rest for about 1 hour or more.

[Tater]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=926

[blind drunk]

That's a really good read, that rye thread!

[rtalbigr]

I am currently do a rye whisky with rye/red wheat/2-row barley. One thing I have discovered is that rye make a fairly acidic wort, so ya need to be aware of that. I generally don't bother with testing pH but some of my rye worts were really sour and testing showed some with a pH below 5.0 so in fermenting the pH dropped even lower and I wasn't getting complete fermentation. I wish now I had paid more attention and used a pH stabilizer.

Big R

[Cvoss]

Thanks so much! I cant wait to get cooking.. Still open to anymore suggestions

[Steep-n-Rocky]

Big R, how were you confirming incomplete fermentation, SG? The reason I ask is that several of my rye batches ran smaller than I thought they would and I attributed it to just being rye.

[rtalbigr]

Big R, how were you confirming incomplete fermentation, SG? The reason I ask is that several of my rye batches ran smaller than I thought they would and I attributed it to just being rye.

Yes, SG. Some of my ferments were finishing around 1.020 and they were very sour. At the time I didn't have means to test pH but I do now. I am also using 5.2 pH Stabilizer with my rye now.

Yields were a little low with my rye batches as well. It seems rye ends up with lots of trub, well, that's been my experience.

Big R

[Cvoss]

any "raw" grain needs to be crushed and cooked (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=16799)
then add crushed malt or enzymes.with rye i like to do a 2 step mash.
after cooking cool to 100f/66c add malt let it rest for 1/2 hour or more then rise the temperature to 155f/68c
and rest for about 1 hour or more.

I'm having a little trouble with the term "raw grain" So all the Rye doesnt have to be malted? Is it better if all of it is? What would be your ratios to make a good Rye Whiskey?

[Cvoss]

I think i've got the distilling and cuts parts down pretty well, i guess i'm having the most problem understanding cooking times, temps, enzymes etc... (i realize you all have given me a ton of information it's just hard to sift threw and relate, it to what im trying to do sometimes) That chart helps....

For instance if i were to do a 70 malted rye 30 corn mash, how would you guys cook that (times, temps. testing)
Would that make a good mash / Rye Whiskey? Opinions or help?

[rtalbigr]

I think i've got the distilling and cuts parts down pretty well, i guess i'm having the most problem understanding cooking times, temps, enzymes etc... (i realize you all have given me a ton of information it's just hard to sift threw and relate, it to what im trying to do sometimes) That chart helps....

For instance if i were to do a 70 malted rye 30 corn mash, how would you guys cook that (times, temps. testing)
Would that make a good mash / Rye Whiskey? Opinions or help?

You'll have to mash the corn seperately first because it requires temps that will denature the enzymes before the corn will soften enough for the starches to be available. You can either boil the corn for 60-90 minutes or use my no-boil method. Then you're gonna have to reduce the temps to 142-143F, add your malted rye, hold it those temps for 30-45 minutes for your beta rest. Now raise the temps to 153-155F and hold it there for the alpha rest.

Using my no-boil here's how I'd do it. Heat 1/2 your water to about 140F and add the pre-soaked corn. Add 10% of your malted rye. Raise temps to 142F for 30 min then to 154 for 30 min. Now bring temps up to 200-212F and let rest for one hour. Add rest of water and remaining malted rye. Bring temps up to 142F for beta rest @ 30 min. Bring up to 154F for 30 min and do alpha rest. Cool. Seperate off grain. Ferment.

Big R

[Tater]

I like to ferment on grain then separate but otherwise +1 rtalbigr

[Lickercabnit]

Big R - When you say "Bring up to 154F for 30 min and do alpha rest" and "Bring temps up to 142F for beta rest @ 30 min", you mean heat the mash to 154 then hold it at that temp for the 30 minutes, not turn off the heat when you hit 154 correct?

When you say "Bring temps up to 142F for beta rest @ 30 min" this means bring it up to 142 then shut down the heat and let rest correct? - Licker

[Washashore]

I didn't quite understand your wording, but i think that is what he's saying. The temp of the mash at which you add the malt should be 142F. I like to maintain that 142F for 60-90 mins (I use a goose down sleeping bag to cover the kettle--with this method you should be able to shut the heat off). This allows the Beta enzymes to work their magic. Next, you slowly bring the temp up to 154F and hold there for an additional 60-90 mins. Again, the sleeping bag method (or however many blankets you can pile on). This allows the alpha enzymes to work their magic.

[Steep-n-Rocky]

On my last run of rye, I used stepped rests and it seemed to work pretty well. Here is what I used:
110F 1 hr
120F 1 hr
140F 1 hr
160F .5-1 hr
Mash out at 168-170F

Without the rests I had a hard time with the mash scorching using propane for heat.

[rtalbigr]

Big R - When you say "Bring up to 154F for 30 min and do alpha rest" and "Bring temps up to 142F for beta rest @ 30 min", you mean heat the mash to 154 then hold it at that temp for the 30 minutes, not turn off the heat when you hit 154 correct?

When you say "Bring temps up to 142F for beta rest @ 30 min" this means bring it up to 142 then shut down the heat and let rest correct? - Licker

Yes, hold at those temps, or close to them. I set my timer at 15 min intervals and then check the temps. If I need to I'll add some heat. Your beta rest is best at 142-145F but the beta range is 130-150F. Your alpha rest is best at 154-155F but the alpha range is 150-162F. When you approach the upper limits of each range you get faster conversion but your enzymes also begin to denature (they quit working). Ya really don't need a long rest. Most of the conversion happens very quickly so the extra minutes is just to extract that last little bit. More than 30 minutes is mostly just wasting time cuz the enzymes have pretty much done all they can do. I often leave mine insulated over nite but that's mostly a matter of convience. Past 9pm my brain is done workin.

Big R

[Washashore]

Hey Big R, what do you use to help neutralize the acidity of your mash? I began fermenting a 50% barley 50% malted rye mash a few days ago. The air lock bubbled for a day and then nothing. I tested the pH of the mash before pitching yeast and was around 5.5 (I only have test strips that test between 5 and 8--it's all I've got for now). I couldn't figure out for the life of me why it was stalled at 1.020 until I read your post on this thread about rye making an acidic environment. I added some baking soda and am hoping it'll revive the fermentation. It foamed like crazy and brought the pH to 7. Time will tell.

[Cvoss]

Thank you again this has helped immensely!

[rtalbigr]

Hey Big R, what do you use to help neutralize the acidity of your mash? I began fermenting a 50% barley 50% malted rye mash a few days ago. The air lock bubbled for a day and then nothing. I tested the pH of the mash before pitching yeast and was around 5.5 (I only have test strips that test between 5 and 8--it's all I've got for now). I couldn't figure out for the life of me why it was stalled at 1.020 until I read your post on this thread about rye making an acidic environment. I added some baking soda and am hoping it'll revive the fermentation. It foamed like crazy and brought the pH to 7. Time will tell.

A pH of 5.5 is good. The "ideal" pH is supposed to 5.2 but the yeast will do fine anywhere from 4-6. The worts I had come out very sour must of had a pH around 3. I have tried baking soda because I've used it @ work to neutralize acids when cleaning brick indoors. I didn't care for the results in my ferment. I now use a product call 5.2 pH Stabilizer (got it from Northern Brewer). It's supposed to make mashing more efficient but I think that's just a selling pitch. However, it is a great buffer/stabilizer; my worts consistently come out at 5.0-5.4, usually right at 5.2.

I haven't really worked out why my ferments stopped at 1.020 except that the low pH might have been a factor. I doin a rye bourbon now and I'll see what the results are in a few days, I just started the ferment last night and they were workin fine this morning.

Big R

[Dnderhead]

"A pH of 5.5 is good. The "ideal" pH is supposed to 5.2 but the yeast "
I disagree with this, threw my research a PH 6-7 (slightly acid)
is where yeast like it the best,but will work between 3.5 and 8
with low PH yeast will start out fast but slows threw out
the rest of the fermentation.

most ferments are done at lower PH not because the yeast
like low PH its because bacteria and wild yeast dont.and domesticated will still work.
so its a compromise between killing off/retarding wild yeast/bacteria growth and still fermenting.
this is because domesticated yeast are much more "hardy" this is similar to wine brewers using P meta.
P meta retards the growth of the weaker wild yeast/bacteria,but the stronger domesticated yeast survive.

[Washashore]

Fascinating. Thanks Dndrhead.

I am dead stuck in the water at 1.020. After neutralizing with baking soda and sitting over night, I pitched a little more yeast to try and revive. I just got home and it's still dead. Any suggestions to defib this thing back to life or just run it? (I can't think of much else I can do, wash temp has been at around 70 F all week too. My initial gravity was 1.050.

So much time for so little product but live and learn I guess, this is my first stalled ferment so I'd just like to know what happened. Thanks all for your help (sorry for hijacking the thread).

[Cvoss]

If i use un malted rye, like Rye flower, and want to add malt, what's the best kind to add for rye whiskey? Light, dark etc? any specific brand or kinds? Is there disadvantages to this?

[Tater]

Id either use rye malt or barley malt

[Dnderhead]

If your going to use barley malt to convert other grain then you will want the lightest "base" malt.this has more enzymes.
distillers malt has even more enzymes but not always available.