clear slime on beer: help/info needed

[Harold]

Hi Guys,

I began another experimental batch of beer last Sunday with hopes of doing a run in the middle of next week. For the sake of making things short I did the following:

1. Began with 3.5 gal of water at 165F and introduced 5 pounds of flaked corn.
2. Allowed temp to drop to 152F and added 1 lb of 6 row Barley
3. Stirred every 15 minutes for 90 min and allowed pot to set and settle
4. 10 hours later mash had cooled to slightly less than 100F. Conversion complete (no blue) and SG=1.062
5. Dissolved 20 pounds of sugar in sufficient water to bring total water used to 14.75 gal
6. New SG= 1.072
7. Pitched 3 packages of EC 1118 yeast
8. Aerated soup off and on for 30 hours using oilless air-pump and stone. Soup temp is stabalized at 72F.
9. Observed several days for continuous activity. Observation positive to include today but activity is slowing.

This makes day 6. When using a ladle to remove liquid for testing, a clear string of slime was noticed clinging to my ladle. The string of slime breaks from the surface of my soup at about 1.75 inches. Stated differently, touch the surface of my beer with a spoon, carefully lift the spoon from the surface and a string of very clear slime will adhere to the spoon and communicate between the surface of the liquid and the spoon until a distance of ~1.75 inches has been reached and then the string of slime breaks. The soup has begun to have a slightly sour taste (as I would expect) and sweetness has decreased considerably.

I don't know what this slime is. I have never experienced this in the past. I still see particles rising and falling in my soup (but not as quickly nor as abundantly as day three) and there is a strong smell of alcohol. I allowed the few drops of liquid in my ladle to evaporate leaving a clear, nearly sticky, oil-like residue that easily dissolved (washed away) in running water.

Has anyone ever experienced this? Should I feed my yeast?

Harold

[junkyard dawg]

Hi Harold.

It could have an infection. Sort of sounds like an acetic bug... The kind that make vinegar.

You really need to start cooling your ferments quickly and getting the yeast pitched and leave it alone. Aerating for that long without a sterile air filter is just pumping whatever bacteria are in the air straight into your sterile wash. I'd honestly be surprised that its not infected.

Highly recommended to follow standard beer making mashing techniques, or at least learn the hows and whys. John Palmer site is a good one that should help you understand the steps for a good clean mash. Morebeer i think is the name...

You were on the right track up to step 4. After the 90 minutes at 150 or so... (precision counts here) you should have most of the conversion done thats going to happen. At that point, I would add the grain mash to a pot that had the sugar water. Boiling sugar water... Add the grain to the BOILING sugar water for two reasons... one is that funky clostridium puke bug... The other is that by boiling the sugars with citric acid, you can get inverted sugars. easier for the yeasties... When thats done, cool it off quickly. put it outside and stir, use a wort chiller, run cold water over it in the sink. Give it a good frothy stir or use your sanitized airstone for a couple of minutes, and when its down to temp then pitch the yeast and close it up.

Good luck, There are other ways to get to that same end, but temperatures are critical, cooling quickly is critical, not aerating for 30 hours is critical.

[Harold]

junkyard dawg:

Thanks for your views on this matter. If bacteria have been introduced to the mix, I will attempt to raise the pH with soda and see if I can halt or suppress proliferation of bacteria. Maybe this will buy me time to do a clearing run and save as much as I can. Your thoughts?

[junkyard dawg]

I would probably let it go and see if it finishes. Its just a guess about the infection.

If it were mine, I'd check the specific gravity and go from there. I don't think I'd add anything to it. I'd let it run its course... Its all part of the learning curve.

[maheel]

give that fermenter a really good clean once empty...

i would soak it full of bleach / napisan type stuff overnight or longer and really get it clean before using again

[Harold]

Hi Guys,

I thought of another way of describing the "slime" that's on top of my beer. Okra is a very slimy seed pod when okra is boiled whole or is pickled whole. I'm certain that many of you southern folks have eaten pickled okra, steamed fresh okra, or even fried okra. The long stringy slim that comes from okra when you bite off the tips is what this slime reminds me of. Neither the slime in my mash nor the slime from okra has a taste.

Harold

[maheel]

it's a infection, it may ruin the wash or it may not

test with a hydro for sg
leave it a few days test again

if it goes down it might be fine to run if it goes mould and gross looking i would dump it

wash everything thats touched it.... and consider cleaning your brew space with a sanitizer

[Harold]

it's a infection, it may ruin the wash or it may not

test with a hydro for sg

leave it a few days test again

if it goes down it might be fine to run if it goes mould and gross looking i would dump it

wash everything thats touched it.... and consider cleaning your brew space with a sanitizer

maheel:
The current SG is 1.064 and I began at 1.072

[maheel]

i just re-read the 1st post

IMO thats a bit slow on the SG and i reckon these are possible causes for the infection / issues

you used malt in the mash and did not boil the wort (boiling = sterilizing) the infection maybe came in then off the grain
IMO your temps a bit cool, be better to bring it up to 80-83f (from 72f)
using the air pump may have pumped in the acetic bug, imo to aerate like that is not needed if your not boiling the wort
if those yeast packets were 12grams each then it was not enough IMO that might have created a slow start allowing the acto to get a grip on things and winning the war with your yeast..

in beer brewing people talk about pouring boiling water over a spoon across the surface to kill a Acto bug
or if they have CO2 tanks they "blanket" it in co2 trying to starve it of O2

you can also rack it off from below leaving the slime on the top saving the beer

best bet warm it up and see what happens for now

[rubber duck]

It's a bit slow because he's if Alaska.

The whole problem with this wash is that it's cold.

What's it smell like, it doesn't sound like an infection to me.

[Harold]

It's a bit slow because he's if Alaska.

The whole problem with this wash is that it's cold.

What's it smell like, it doesn't sound like an infection to me.

It has the strong smell of alcohol when the lid is removed and the smell of alcohol get stronger by the day. There is no foul odor. The slime has no taste (just like boiled okra slime has no taste). The liquid portion of the wash has begun to taste a bit sour because the wash is still producing gas (CO2 ?? I hope), and most of the sweetness in the wash is gone.

[rubber duck]

Beta gulcan. That's my bet.

Something doesn't make scene, 1.072- 1.064 gravity. You shouldn't smell any alcohol, because there isn't any with that reading. what's your fermentation temp and are you taking it into account on your gravity reading. Hydrometers are calibrated at 60f.

[Harold]

Beta gulcan. That's my bet.

Something doesn't make scene, 1.072- 1.064 gravity. You shouldn't smell any alcohol, because there isn't any with that reading. what's your fermentation temp and are you taking it into account on your gravity reading. Hydrometers are calibrated at 60f.

Can I correct the beta glucan problem?

Fermentation temp is between 72F and 74F. It's been working since last Sunday. Pitched yeast (EC 1118 X 3 packages) at 8:06PM Alaska time.

Do I need to feed my yeast? I am having a hard time getting pH. Specific Gravity is taken with a refractometer having ATC using Brix scale.

Harold

[rubber duck]

Beta glucan is the same thing that happens with a ray mash when it's not step mashed. It turns into the consistency of snot.

I've never had a infection that acted like your describing, but I've not had many.

Your fermentation temp is good, your yeast to liquid ratio is a little low but not terrible, your recipe is a little low on the grain side but that's acceptable to. It doesn't stink and it smells like alcohol, but in a week it's only dropped one gravity point.

You got me, I'm all out of ideas but one. Pitch a quarter cup of bakers yeast and see what happens.

[Dnderhead]

"Can I correct the beta glucan problem?"
you missed that, it was back at 95-113f when you mashed.
its called a "rest" after bringing the temperature above 113F you denatured the enzyme.

[blind drunk]

The soup has begun to have a slightly sour taste (as I would expect) and sweetness has decreased considerably.

The liquid portion of the wash has begun to taste a bit sour because the wash is still producing gas (CO2 ?? I hope), and most of the sweetness in the wash is gone.

Sounds like it's working then. No? Maybe it's even done. Rack it into a clean carboy and wrap some saran around the opening and see what happens. Maybe scoop up the slime first. Quit tasting the slime:shock:

[Harold]

"Can I correct the beta glucan problem?"
you missed that, it was back at 95-113f when you mashed.
its called a "rest" after bringing the temperature above 113F you denatured the enzyme.

Hi Dnderhead.

I was hoping you might see the post and contribute, however, you've lost me. Where, in the above explanation, did I state that I went above 113F and denature the enzyme? Have I missed something?

Harold

[Coaster]

.....the liquid portion of the wash has begun to taste a bit sour..... clear string of slime was noticed clinging to my ladle…..slime like boiled okra slime…. long stringy slime …..

@ Harold

The above quotations appear to indicate you have a pediococcus or similar bacterial infection of your fermentation. A pediococcus or similar bacterial infection will result in nasty undesirable flavors and aromas.

If you have a pediococcus or similar bacterial infection at this stage of your fermentation there is no corrective action other than to completely discard your suspect fermentation and completely and thoroughly sanitize any and all equipment that has contacted this fermentation. Failing to completely and thoroughly sanitize all your equipment will only result in bacterial infection of future fermentations.

Regards,
Coaster

[Dnderhead]

when using rye/wheat or other grain with high beta glucanase..you do a "rest" at 95-113f
ok lets start at the beginning,,
cook any crushed "raw" (not malted) grain
step#1)cool to 95-113F add crushed malted grain. and hold at these temperature for 1 hour
step#2) then rise the temperature to 131-150f and hold there for about 1 hour
step#3) then if you want rise the temp to 154-162f and hold there for 1 hour (some do this step and some dont ,but it helps brake the longer sugars into smaller ones)

now you can draw off the wort and boil if you want,(never boil on the grain),and cool,the cooling is necessary if you boil to prevent diacetyl.(I never found the boil necessary) but I do use a "starter" this is a "Minne ferment"aerated to grow a lot of yeast.

[cheapgas123]

After reading Harolds post I am nervous, I made 2 batches of the same. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=27610 My first batch is at the 48 hour mark since I added the yeast and all is fine, it's just bubbling away and has an alcohol aroma, the second batch is at the 24 hr mark since I added the yeast and all seems to be fine with it too. I didn't raise the temp or anything after the conversion. Just hope its an isolated incident. So far I'm not having any problems like Harold.

[Coaster]

@ cheapgas123,

If you review Forum Member Harold initial posting in this thread you will see that he excessively (30 hours) aerated his fermentation. This most likely caused his bacterial infection.

Regards,
Coaste

[Dnderhead]

""Where, in the above explanation, did I state that I went above 113F and denature the enzyme? Have I missed something?"
""2. Allowed temp to drop to 152F and added 1 lb of 6 row Barley""

then as for aerating it is not necessary, if you make a starter.a starter should be used with any grain/fruit mash that is not sterile.I usaly have "jug yeast" this is just what it sounds like,a jug of yeast,I take off what i want to pitch,add some wort to the jug so the yeast grow back.its usaly 1 pint so i make up pint jars of sterile wort to replace what i remove.

"

[Harold]

@ cheapgas123,

If you review Forum Member Harold initial posting in this thread you will see that he excessively (30 hours) aerated his fermentation. This most likely caused his bacterial infection.

Regards,
Coaste

Hi Coaster,

I think I need to do some "after-action-damage control". Obviously I did a poor job of explaining when I first began this thread.

Let's fall back and "re-group". I said, "Aerated soup off and on for 30 hours using oil-less air-pump and stone. Soup temp is stabilized at 72F". I did not say I aerated for 30 hours. I concede that I could have used more accurate sentences when initiating this thread. Let me state this and then clarify:

1. During the first 30 hour period, I periodically aerated the soup.
2. More specifically and certainly being more succinct, the first aeration occurred approximately 10 hours after conversion but before I pitched yeast. At or near the 10 hour mark, my temp was slightly less than 100F. I aerated for approximately 15 minutes using a pump and stone. I also used a spoon for about 45 seconds then I pitched yeast (EC 1118).
3. Citing the book Making Pure Corn Whisky, oxygen is driven off when mash is heated before and during the conversion process. For the first 24 to 30 hours, after pitching temp is reached and yeast is pitched, the aerobic phase begins. During the aerobic phase, yeast use all available oxygen to multiply. It is important to oxygenate the “oxygen-diminished-converted-mash” before pitching yeast so yeast will have adequate O2 for multiplication.
4. After initial aeration and the pitching of yeast, I waited for nearly 8 hours and then stirred my soup with a huge metallic spoon. Fermentation was occurring but it was not very active. *NOTE*: I stirred for no more than 8 to 10 seconds and re-covered my container.
5. At the 24 hour mark I inspected for activity. There was activity BUT nothing to write home about. I stirred as I did at the 8 hour mark and checked temperature (72F and holding).
6. At the 30 hour mark, activity had not increased so I aerated using the pump and stone for at least 15 minutes with thoughts that there must be insufficient dissolved O2 since I could see no significant increase in fermentation activity. The EC 1118 package stated that one (1) packet was good for 5 gallons and I had 15 gallons of beer so I pitched three (3) packets of yeast. The 30 hour mark was the last time I aerated my beer. So it was not a constant 30 hour aeration process, rather, aeration occurred over a 30 hour period.

I hope I have not been as clumsy with sentence structure as before ….. still there may be need for clarification.

Harold


Dnderhead: I am currently drafting a reply to you. Just hang in there like a hair on a biscuit.

[Harold]

Dnderhead:

I’m not asleep ….. just confused.

Herein lies my confusion. You stated, ".......after bringing the temperature above 113F you denatured the enzyme". Again I refer to the book Making Pure Corn Whiskey. I used flaked corn (pre-gelatinized) and 6 row pale Barely malt as suggested in the book. It was stated that 6 row pale (in their opinion) has the highest diastatic power and was the malt of choice. It was also stated that it is best to hold the temp at a range that best favors beta-amylase activity (140F to 151F). Optimal temp for beta-amylase enzymes (saccharifying enzymes) is 145F for 60 to 90 minutes for conversion. Alpha-amylase (liquefying enzymes) temp is 152F to 160F. Apparently alpha-amylase produces a high proportion of unfermentable sugars. Thus, Ian Smiley favors beta-amylase. The book is recommending a temperature of 145F but you are stating that when I went above 113F I denatured my enzymes. Did you mean to state this differently or am I totally missing your point?

I am reading several other books as well as a significant number of threads on this forum and all seems to advocate that Barley malt be held at 140F to 151F for 90 minutes which is significantly higher than 113F. Other research suggest that once conversion occurs, the temp should be elevated to well above 165F (one source suggested 175F) so as to destroy any further enzymatic activity and "pasteurize" the soup.

I think I am confused because the way I am reading your post, I should have never exceeded 113F because this denatures the enzyme. However, in yet another post you are suggesting that I graduate up from 95F to eventually 165F. I think I am following your thought process but none of the books I have been reading talks about this so I didn’t know to do what you are suggesting. I think that what you are suggesting is, by starting at a low temp and working my way up, I can make use of all the diastatic power tucked away in 6 row pale Barely. In other words, I can get the best bang for my buck over a wide temperature range but to do this I must start low and slowly work my way into the alpha-amylase arena. Am I correct?

Harold

[blind drunk]

Just curious, you said elsewhere that you ran the wash. How did it turn out? It's not unusually to have some kind of "extra" bacterial involvement in a wash/mash. The amount is crucial. I would suggest next time make a big ass starter using liquid malt or molasses and water. I like to have it at around 6% abv. Let it ferment for 12 hours or so and then pitch it. I would go a little warmer with the ferment, closer to 80 degrees. Get the fermenting done in a hurry, and rack the liquid off of the trub as soon as the cap falls. Let it finish its business in a carboy with a bubbler or a piece of saran wrapped around the hole.

[Dnderhead]

- Major Enzyme Groups and FunctionsEnzyme
Optimum
Temperature
Range Working pH Range
Function

Phytase
86-126°F
5.0-5.5
Lowers the mash pH. No longer used.

Debranching (var.)
95-113°F
5.0-5.8
Solubilization of starches.

Beta Glucanase
95-113°F
4.5-5.5
Best gum breaking rest.

Peptidase
113-131°F
4.6-5.3
Produces Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN).

Protease
113-131°F
4.6-5.3
Breaks up large proteins that form haze.

Beta Amylase
131-150°F
5.0-5.5
Produces maltose.

Alpha Amylase
154-162°F
5.3-5.7
Produces a variety of sugars, including maltose.

[Dnderhead]

as you can see different enzymes work at different temperature..
all of those "steps"are not needed... (and with all malted grain jump to 140-150)
now..with the starter,,if you make a large starter the yeast reproduce in it and you dont need to aerate the wash to reproduce yeast.this is nothing more than a small ferment..by doing so then less chance of contamination,and it starts fermenting in a short time.

[Harold]

Good Morning Guys:

Dnderhead: Your reply is much appreciated and will be well considered on the "next voyage". I thank you.

BlindDrunk: I didn't think you would ever ask about this latest batch. The Frau has awaken me from my slumber; it's 0430 hrs and it came a big snow (AGAIN ) yesterday and continued throughout the night. I have a 60+ mile drive before reaching my DTY station. Yesterday evening, road conditions were horrible at best and numerous cars were upside down discounting the many in ditches along the way. So rather than providing you guys with a SITREP (situation report) this morning, I will carefully weigh my words throughout the day, keep you in suspense and perched on the edge of your chairs until this evening. At that time I will provide you with the full "low-down" on my slime/mash when I gracefully slide in from work.


See what happens when you throw spent grain out the door in the dead of winter!

[junkyard dawg]

Thats a funny looking cat...

Oh, and about that specific gravity. Refractometers are great for many things, but they are no longer accurate once fermentation starts. Hydrometers are the way to go.

[Harold]

Hello All:
Regarding slime/mash: in a nut shell, I'm most saddened to report that the slime/mash situation has not improved. If anything, it may have exacerbated.

1. It's a curious thing. After 11 days of an increasing abundance of slime (more on that shortly), there is NO foul odor, whatsoever, and not even a hint of rancid taste. When I lift the lid on my fermenter, a strong alcohol smell is quickly realized. I am still seeing about the same amount of activity (particulate rising to the surface and falling again) as I did when fermentation first began. However, I must point out that I have never witnessed a fermentation "boil" or "roll" with this batch as witnessed and appreciated previously. Stated differently, fermentation activity has been quite slow ...... and its been consistently slow. Nothing has changed regarding physical activity over this 11 day period.

2. Formation of Slime and Slime Consistency :
I first noticed slime formation around the third day. Quite by accident I discovered this slime when I dipped my spoon in the beer to obtain a sample for checking sugar concentration/SG. As previously reported, a string of slime was observed trailing from my spoon as I lifted the spoon away from the surface of my beer. There was a strong smell of alcohol but my refractometer indicated that I had a very high sugar content; a SG only slightly less than my beginning SG. That's as wrong as two boys in bed with a Saint Bernard and a pickle! That's just wrong.

Using a flashlight I closely scrutinized the surface of my beer and detected a faint hint of stratification. This stratification layer is and was very clear. Small particles make their way to where stratification begins and then continue to float quite quickly to the "real surface" at which time they fall again into the cloudy abyss. It's important (at least to me) to point out that the top stratified layer is about ¼ inch thick and is seemingly less viscous than underlying layers. More on this later.

I plunged my large "mess hall spoon" deep into the primordial soup and discovered an increasingly thicker (more viscous) liquid as I approached the bottom. When I removed the spoon from "the deep", a LONG string of slime had attached itself to the spoon and clung to the spoon as I withdrew the spoon from the beer. The string of slime reached lengths as great as 12 to 14 inches before breaking under its weight. *NOTE*: There was no smell whatsoever and the slime remained clear. The slime was so viscous that I believe a small pocket calculator could be easily suspended for sometime in the slime before eventually making its way to the bottom. I think floating a hydrometer in this "stuff" would give a totally erroneous reading. The smell of alcohol basically remained unchanged regardless of the amount of stirring of the slime.

I am of the notion that the thin stratification layer is primarily alcohol (of sorts) accounting for the strong alcohol smell when the lid is removed. However, my better senses tell me that I am full of shit. This slime behaves like mucopolysaccharides and the surface liquid also resembles a very thin (far less viscous) mucopolysaccharides therefore it can't be alcohol ...... or at least ethanol. The slime easily dissolves in fresh water but quickly segregates itself from the less viscous slime. I think of this as mucous secreted by specialized cells and this mucous is miscible in water. Well, alcohol is also miscible in water. Then how in Hell can I have a slime that is, in fact, miscible in water but have an alcohol layer suspended on top of this slime layer since both are miscible in water? Well, I don't think I can so what clear liquid is floating on top of the slime and why does the slime start off very "fluid-like" and become increasingly viscous with depth? As an afterthought, my colleague and cohort has advanced the proposition that liquid-densities can be responsible for layer separation. I can "buy this" BUT the super thick slime (found near the bottom) DOES NOT want to integrate with the "goo" nearer the surface ..... even when forced.

3. Distillation:
I took the time to distill about a gallon of beer (slime). I used a pot still and very low heat. I got about an ounce of foreshots/heads and no hearts. Everything went very fast from high ETOH to low tails. I got about 3 oz of tails before I began to get some "bitter" taste. Over all, the distillate had a sweet taste. Everything was collected in one single jar and it measured 30 proof (about 15% ETOH). I allowed my cooker to cool so I could inspect the cooker's contents. The liquid was more milky than when I began but there was no slime in the cooker. Heat must have influenced clearing the slime.

I will run the remaining beer tonight, salvage as much as I can, and disinfect my pots and utensils. I've been considering the use of 10% NaOCl as my disinfectant but I am also considering Campden. From what I have read, it's possible to use Campden to disinfect my beer and then re-pitch yeast. Has anyone ever done this?

I am enclosing an image of a string of slime that bifurcates as it trails from my mess-hall spoon and into the soup. Maybe you can get a mental image of what I am trying to describe.

Harold