Hi all first post Here but have been reading for a little while, I recently (5 months or so) bought a turbo 500 still kit and since i bought it I have done about 5 runs (all different recipes) I generally get about 3L of 93-94% out of a run and when it's at the 93-94% it smells sweet and doesn't burn the nose, however as soon as I water it down to 40% It gains a very sharp smell especially when air rated, any ideas what could be causing this?
Thanks for any help
Sharp smells
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Pugdog1
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Re: Sharp smells
Yes turbo yeast but have also tried bakers yeast and no noticeable difference at dilution stage
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Usge
- retired
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Re: Sharp smells
Ok. Some things you can try:
First, let your fresh distillate "air" out for a day or two before doing your blending. Sometimes those lighter volatiles will air off after a day or so. So, letting it rest/sit might help. Next, make sure you are doing proper cuts after airing out by watering down your distillate samples. Proofing your sampling down will also help you detect subtle off-flavors, etc..that might not be so apparent at 90+% (given it pretty much kills your taste buds as soon as it touches them). I take a small teaspoon of product, and mix with a teaspoon of water.
One last thing: regardless of what yeast you use, if you are pushing your ferments hard (ie., high gravity, etc), you run the risk of picking up off-flavors from stressed yeast. It's better not to be too greedy here. So, if all else fails, back off the amount of sugar, etc., you are pushing through your ferments and settle for 12% instead of 18%. Double run a load or two if you need higher proof (rather than trying to squeeze it all out of one run).
First, let your fresh distillate "air" out for a day or two before doing your blending. Sometimes those lighter volatiles will air off after a day or so. So, letting it rest/sit might help. Next, make sure you are doing proper cuts after airing out by watering down your distillate samples. Proofing your sampling down will also help you detect subtle off-flavors, etc..that might not be so apparent at 90+% (given it pretty much kills your taste buds as soon as it touches them). I take a small teaspoon of product, and mix with a teaspoon of water.
One last thing: regardless of what yeast you use, if you are pushing your ferments hard (ie., high gravity, etc), you run the risk of picking up off-flavors from stressed yeast. It's better not to be too greedy here. So, if all else fails, back off the amount of sugar, etc., you are pushing through your ferments and settle for 12% instead of 18%. Double run a load or two if you need higher proof (rather than trying to squeeze it all out of one run).
Last edited by rad14701 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed "cuts" to "blending" in the first sentence to eliminate potential confusion.
Reason: Changed "cuts" to "blending" in the first sentence to eliminate potential confusion.
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Pugdog1
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- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:45 am
Re: Sharp smells
I've heard alot of mentionings of airing out but haven't seen any details steps on how to do it efficiently without losing to much % or anything like that. And I'm still working on my cuts haven't quite got my heads and tails sorted from the body properly I think. Atm I'm doIng 8kg sugar to 25l of water is this to much?
And would doing a grain/potato mash make a better neutral?
And would doing a grain/potato mash make a better neutral?
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Usge
- retired
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- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:22 am
Re: Sharp smells
Yes! 8kg of sugar is too much. Here's a calculator: http://homedistiller.org/calcs/alcohol_yield" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Try to keep your potential alc somewhere between 10-12%. Note that it also makes a difference whether you are talking about 25L of "water" vs 25L of total volume...as adding sugar increases the volume such that you'd be using even less water if you are measuring it that way. That should give you cleaner, less stressful ferments with less off-flavors to start with. (Clean in, clean out). As to airing the spirits...you just cover it (coffee filter, napkin, something to keep the fruit flies out but let it breath) and let it set for 48 hours. That's it. Yes, you could loose alc/abv. The longer you let it sit, the more you'll loose. But, you'll also give it a chance to take with it, some of those things that smell bad or taste sharp — sometimes those initial volatiles will air off in the first couple days. It doesn't work with/for everything though, so I say...let it set for a day or so. And if it's better after that, leave it another day. If not...you can stop, as it probably won't make much difference to go longer. And cuts are "vital" to this entire process. If your cuts are off, not only could it smell bad, it could also taste bad. So, this is very important.
My advice to you would be to not be in a rush, not be greedy, slow down and not push things so hard. I think you'll find the results are well worth it. It really doesn't pay to try and be greedy with this hobby. What's the point? You can buy crap vodka cheap...cheaper than you can make it. Trying to short cut things, will only reduce your quality. There are other ways to deal with the loss in abv or yield you may have from following better procedures to produce a quality spirit. For instance, instead of trying to see how high you can push a single ferment....do multiple ferments at lower abv/stress and strip them. Then run low-wines in your still. You'll hit your neutral mark easier, and it will give you excellent yield. You can also mix them..ie., do one strip run down to a gal of 35%, then mix that with 4 gals of freshly fermented wash (ie., at a reasonable 10%). The only thing you have to be careful of here is to not let your overall still charge get above 45% (some say 40%). It's a safety issue. So, if what you plan to run is over that, you'll need to water it down.
In regards to cuts...both heads and tails can smell. Heads smell like acetone (finger nail polish) and sometimes butter. Tails smell like wetdog, wet cardboard, etc. and can be rather funky and oily. (this is what will cloud your spirits as well). Turbo's and high gravity washes tend to produce an abundance of both...and often make them particularly nasty. The other problem you are probably having is..it is much harder to discern these fraction differences when you are pushing neutral than it is when you are distilling at much lower proofs. As an experiment, what you can do is...run your still detuned....no reflux. Collect the distillate in separate jars and line them up (try to use 12 or so). You can figure out the approximate volume of your run ahead of time and divide it by the 12 jars to know about how much to collect in each jar. Now, sample each jar by taking a shot glass and adding one teaspoon of distillate and 1 teaspoon of water. (ie., dilute your tasting with a cut of water). Go down the row of jars. The fores..smear into heads. Heads start out "strong" (chemical, biting, etc) and then fade out. Right at the point they just about completely fade, a "new" flavor starts to emerge. This is the tails side. The new flavor fades "in", and becomes stronger and more bitter and oily as it goes until it peaks. From there, it fades out as the distillate gets watery. When you get done, you can always throw it back in and run it again so it won't be a wasted run.
Separated like this, the flavor profile of run will emerge for you and make it easier to see/feel/smell/taste such that you can remember it. And it follows this same path (flavor/taste, etc) wise every single run....regardless of the proof. The issue is, at 95% you taste very little of it. But, if you were to drop the proof at any given point in that timeline of a run, the same flavors would emerge. Knowing where these points are will help you immensely in deciding how to do your cuts. This is also why it's important to taste/test/cut by watering down your samples...because these flavors will emerge. This is often why people say...my neutral was fine, but after watering to drinking proof, there are these off-flavors. Test your cut using watered samples.
There's lots of resources here on just about any subject (or partial subjects) that you can explore. But, that should help get you in the ballpark so you know what you are looking for. Good stillin'!
Try to keep your potential alc somewhere between 10-12%. Note that it also makes a difference whether you are talking about 25L of "water" vs 25L of total volume...as adding sugar increases the volume such that you'd be using even less water if you are measuring it that way. That should give you cleaner, less stressful ferments with less off-flavors to start with. (Clean in, clean out). As to airing the spirits...you just cover it (coffee filter, napkin, something to keep the fruit flies out but let it breath) and let it set for 48 hours. That's it. Yes, you could loose alc/abv. The longer you let it sit, the more you'll loose. But, you'll also give it a chance to take with it, some of those things that smell bad or taste sharp — sometimes those initial volatiles will air off in the first couple days. It doesn't work with/for everything though, so I say...let it set for a day or so. And if it's better after that, leave it another day. If not...you can stop, as it probably won't make much difference to go longer. And cuts are "vital" to this entire process. If your cuts are off, not only could it smell bad, it could also taste bad. So, this is very important.
My advice to you would be to not be in a rush, not be greedy, slow down and not push things so hard. I think you'll find the results are well worth it. It really doesn't pay to try and be greedy with this hobby. What's the point? You can buy crap vodka cheap...cheaper than you can make it. Trying to short cut things, will only reduce your quality. There are other ways to deal with the loss in abv or yield you may have from following better procedures to produce a quality spirit. For instance, instead of trying to see how high you can push a single ferment....do multiple ferments at lower abv/stress and strip them. Then run low-wines in your still. You'll hit your neutral mark easier, and it will give you excellent yield. You can also mix them..ie., do one strip run down to a gal of 35%, then mix that with 4 gals of freshly fermented wash (ie., at a reasonable 10%). The only thing you have to be careful of here is to not let your overall still charge get above 45% (some say 40%). It's a safety issue. So, if what you plan to run is over that, you'll need to water it down.
In regards to cuts...both heads and tails can smell. Heads smell like acetone (finger nail polish) and sometimes butter. Tails smell like wetdog, wet cardboard, etc. and can be rather funky and oily. (this is what will cloud your spirits as well). Turbo's and high gravity washes tend to produce an abundance of both...and often make them particularly nasty. The other problem you are probably having is..it is much harder to discern these fraction differences when you are pushing neutral than it is when you are distilling at much lower proofs. As an experiment, what you can do is...run your still detuned....no reflux. Collect the distillate in separate jars and line them up (try to use 12 or so). You can figure out the approximate volume of your run ahead of time and divide it by the 12 jars to know about how much to collect in each jar. Now, sample each jar by taking a shot glass and adding one teaspoon of distillate and 1 teaspoon of water. (ie., dilute your tasting with a cut of water). Go down the row of jars. The fores..smear into heads. Heads start out "strong" (chemical, biting, etc) and then fade out. Right at the point they just about completely fade, a "new" flavor starts to emerge. This is the tails side. The new flavor fades "in", and becomes stronger and more bitter and oily as it goes until it peaks. From there, it fades out as the distillate gets watery. When you get done, you can always throw it back in and run it again so it won't be a wasted run.
Separated like this, the flavor profile of run will emerge for you and make it easier to see/feel/smell/taste such that you can remember it. And it follows this same path (flavor/taste, etc) wise every single run....regardless of the proof. The issue is, at 95% you taste very little of it. But, if you were to drop the proof at any given point in that timeline of a run, the same flavors would emerge. Knowing where these points are will help you immensely in deciding how to do your cuts. This is also why it's important to taste/test/cut by watering down your samples...because these flavors will emerge. This is often why people say...my neutral was fine, but after watering to drinking proof, there are these off-flavors. Test your cut using watered samples.
There's lots of resources here on just about any subject (or partial subjects) that you can explore. But, that should help get you in the ballpark so you know what you are looking for. Good stillin'!