Cheap oak barrels?

[Alphadog007]

I have read most of the posts and arguments about/versus barrels, sticks, and cubes. I would love to be a purist AND would love to have the money to buy oak barrels but have found oak chips to be AWESOME and/or better!

A six-sided, one-inch, oak cube has six inches of surface area. Assuming it is properly baked/charred ... Here is my math question: What is the interior surface area of a gallon jar? If I am simulating the inside of an oak barrel, do I need three or four cubes (simulating 18-24 inches of its/the interior oak barrel) or do I need more cubes?

My rum is incredible so now I am experimenting on different kinds of wood, combinations of wood, and time. I lack the math knowledge to convert volume to surface area of my gallon glass jars.

BONUS: I also don't know if this is right, but I read somewhere that (only) during the first month of "cube-aging" if one were to put it (one gallon glass jar) outside/COLD climate at night then shake-like-crazy and move to room temperature during day (REPEAT) this first month would "age" the rum approximately 8-12 years. I know that sounds crazy, and it doesn't work after that first month, I mean, 2 months of doing this doesn't give you 20 years ... just 8-12 years AND ONE MORE MONTH. Again, my rum is amazing and have found it to be similar in age/smooth(?) as the aged store bought. (Okay guys, tear me up on this ... but PLEASE answer my question above on surface area). THANKS

[HolyBear]

To find the surface area of a cylinder add the surface area of each end plus the surface area of the side. Each end is a circle so the surface area of each end is π * r 2 , where r is the radius of the end. There are two ends so their combinded surface area is 2 π * r 2 . The surface area of the side is the circumference times the height or 2 π * r * h, where r is the radius and h is the height of the side.

The entire formula for the surface area of a cylinder is 2 π r 2 + 2 π r h

That should get ya close enough.....

[Washashore]

I have read most of the posts and arguments about/versus barrels, sticks, and cubes. I would love to be a purist AND would love to have the money to buy oak barrels but have found oak chips to be AWESOME and/or better!
I surely doubt it

A six-sided, one-inch, oak cube has six inches of surface area. Assuming it is properly baked/charred ... Here is my math question: What is the interior surface area of a gallon jar? If I am simulating the inside of an oak barrel, do I need three or four cubes (simulating 18-24 inches of its/the interior oak barrel) or do I need more cubes?

Take the circumference of your jar and multiply by the height (before the neck). Never used cubes, but my general rule of thumb is that less is more. Even if it takes longer. This chart might help:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/woakcube.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

My rum is incredible so now I am experimenting on different kinds of wood, combinations of wood, and time. I lack the math knowledge to convert volume to surface area of my gallon glass jars.

Be careful what woods you use, some may be toxic. Definitely avoid aromatic/rot resistant woods (cedar, mahogany, Ipe and any other tropical wood

BONUS: I also don't know if this is right, but I read somewhere that (only) during the first month of "cube-aging" if one were to put it (one gallon glass jar) outside/COLD climate at night then shake-like-crazy and move to room temperature during day (REPEAT) this first month would "age" the rum approximately 8-12 years. I know that sounds crazy, and it doesn't work after that first month, I mean, 2 months of doing this doesn't give you 20 years ... just 8-12 years AND ONE MORE MONTH. Again, my rum is amazing and have found it to be similar in age/smooth(?) as the aged store bought. (Okay guys, tear me up on this ... but PLEASE answer my question above on surface area). THANKS

the earth is slow but the bison is patient

[mash rookie]

I have read most of the posts and arguments about/versus barrels, sticks, and cubes. I would love to be a purist AND would love to have the money to buy oak barrels but have found oak chips to be AWESOME and/or better!
I surely doubt it

A six-sided, one-inch, oak cube has six inches of surface area. Assuming it is properly baked/charred ... Here is my math question: What is the interior surface area of a gallon jar? If I am simulating the inside of an oak barrel, do I need three or four cubes (simulating 18-24 inches of its/the interior oak barrel) or do I need more cubes?

Take the circumference of your jar and multiply by the height (before the neck). Never used cubes, but my general rule of thumb is that less is more. Even if it takes longer. This chart might help:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/woakcube.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

My rum is incredible so now I am experimenting on different kinds of wood, combinations of wood, and time. I lack the math knowledge to convert volume to surface area of my gallon glass jars.

Be careful what woods you use, some may be toxic. Definitely avoid aromatic/rot resistant woods (cedar, mahogany, Ipe and any other tropical wood

BONUS: I also don't know if this is right, but I read somewhere that (only) during the first month of "cube-aging" if one were to put it (one gallon glass jar) outside/COLD climate at night then shake-like-crazy and move to room temperature during day (REPEAT) this first month would "age" the rum approximately 8-12 years. I know that sounds crazy, and it doesn't work after that first month, I mean, 2 months of doing this doesn't give you 20 years ... just 8-12 years AND ONE MORE MONTH. Again, my rum is amazing and have found it to be similar in age/smooth(?) as the aged store bought. (Okay guys, tear me up on this ... but PLEASE answer my question above on surface area). THANKS

the earth is slow but the bison is patient

You sure have become an expert pretty fast. How many batches have you aged on chips VS barrels or staves? been doing this a long time?

I surely doubt it

[Washashore]

Really?

I've been doing this for a year and first started with chips. After realizing they did little more than add color, I quickly stopped using them. I have two 5.3 gallon oak barrels and one 3 gallon oak barrel. I've aged rum, bourbon and whiskey in the barrels. I currently have 5 gallons in jars oaking on sticks I've charred myself, not to mention everything ive aged over the past year.

It doesn't take long to realize where the quality lies. To further the point I read A LOT about oak and aging (mostly off this site) and have posted several links and article excerpts in this forum that back up my findings.

If you're so sure, post a poll around here and we'll see how people will chime in saying that oak chips provide a better end product than an oak barrel.

Sheesh....

[mash rookie]

I have used and do use chips, staves and have product aging in barrels. I make some of the best tasting stuff my friends have ever tried.

What I dont make is judgmental discouragement to those that are enjoying success with their chosen methods because I believe there is only one way.

I would be proud and honored to have Uncle Jesse taste my work.

[Washashore]

I think you misunderstood my post. The comment wasn't intended to be condescending or judgemental (hence the smiley face)--you'll notice that what I put in bold as part of the quote is what I was referring to; simply that oak chips generally won't give a better end product than a barrel. If you disagree so be it, I've NEVER read one post on this forum for the past 2 years that anyone has ever had a better final product with chips over a barrel.

Chill out.

[Alphadog007]

The original poster here: I am happy for anyone's success. MY success has come from one-inch oak cubes. I believe it CANNOT add only color (but taste) and yes, time, is king. This isn't an emotional issue ... it is a preference issue. I have been doing rum for just over four years now. Thank you all who answered my math question. Thanks to the veterans here for their passion and sharing. To the haters and downgraders ... relax, drink more booze and less coffee.

[E85andtonic]

Interesting debate, I enjoy seeing everyone's perspectives. I took the liberty of trying to solve what I believe was embedded in the first question. How many 1in cubes does it take to equate to aging in an oak barrel? Assuming surface area, where product touches oak, is what we are solving for. Answer is below, assumptions are:
- Barrel is a cylinder, not tapered at ends.
- 1 cu in equals .004329 gallons
- pi equals 3.14159
- made length of barrels roughly the same as barrels for sale by capacity
- volume in barrel exactly fills the space... No headroom.
Solved for the number of cubes for various amounts of liquid:
1 gallon barrel - 35 cubes
2 gallon barrel - 56 cubes
3 gallon barrel - 75 cubes
4 - 93
5 - 114

Course I'm at work and therefore not drinking, so don't trust these numbers till I've had a few shots and work back thru them...

[Alphadog007]

Interesting debate, I enjoy seeing everyone's perspectives. I took the liberty of trying to solve what I believe was embedded in the first question. How many 1in cubes does it take to equate to aging in an oak barrel? Assuming surface area, where product touches oak, is what we are solving for. Answer is below, assumptions are:

- 1 cu in equals .004329 gallons

1 gallon barrel - 35 cubes

Amazing, but there are 6 cubic inches per 1 inch cube. 35 cubes would leave little room for the beverage. Not as smart as you guys, but I was 'eye-balling' it at 7-8 cubes at max. From an earlier post the color does happen, and the more cubes and time make my rum look absolutely black.

[Washashore]

Alpha, have you ever used sticks? I'm curious as to how sticks compare to cubes under similar conditions. The one thing I like about sticks is that I can char one of the stick and fade into a toast at the end. So far it seems to get closest to oak barrel quality as I can.

On a side note, if I offended you by my initial post I apologize, I wasn't inferring that you were making an inferior product by using chips, I was inferring that your product in an oak barrel would be noticeably superior, that's all.

[Alphadog007]

Washashore, no, we're cool, no offense. I have never done strips only because I can't get it through in my head that oak barrels are only surface area contact with the beverage. I believe that the contact with the solution is most effective and efficient with cubes. Also, 100% of the cube touches the beverage whereas barrel only if completely full. I just need to figure out how many cubes. The other problem is 'over-oaking'. I LOVE this thread. I am always impressed by the passion and knowledge of like-minded people. People are ready for a good argument, especially with this hobby, don't tell anyone they're wrong though.

[E85andtonic]

Interesting debate, I enjoy seeing everyone's perspectives. I took the liberty of trying to solve what I believe was embedded in the first question. How many 1in cubes does it take to equate to aging in an oak barrel? Assuming surface area, where product touches oak, is what we are solving for. Answer is below, assumptions are:

- 1 cu in equals .004329 gallons

1 gallon barrel - 35 cubes

Amazing, but there are 6 cubic inches per 1 inch cube. 35 cubes would leave little room for the beverage. Not as smart as you guys, but I was 'eye-balling' it at 7-8 cubes at max. From an earlier post the color does happen, and the more cubes and time make my rum look absolutely black.

There are 6 square inches of surface area per cube. I already built that into the equation. Not saying it makes sense, just that you need a lot of cubes to have the same product to oak interactions. I believe 35 cubes plus a gallon of product fit in a gallon and a half jar... Even before absorption. A little over 200 cubes would be the same volume as a gallon.

[Alphadog007]

E85, I'm totally NOT getting this. I am absolutely speaking out of ignorance, but if I were to straighten out a cube so it were a flat malleable piece ... you are saying it would take 35 of these strips to line the inside of a one gallon jar? Further, we only need to cover the inside of the jar as it simulates the barrel ... so I don't get the 200 cubes reference. I'm not trying to be difficult ... I just don't understand the math.

[Dnderhead]

there must be about 200 square in a gallon ? and if cubes has 6 square, 200<6=33 blocks

[E85andtonic]

E85, I'm totally NOT getting this. I am absolutely speaking out of ignorance, but if I were to straighten out a cube so it were a flat malleable piece ... you are saying it would take 35 of these strips to line the inside of a one gallon jar? Further, we only need to cover the inside of the jar as it simulates the barrel ... so I don't get the 200 cubes reference. I'm not trying to be difficult ... I just don't understand the math.

No worries. I'm not trying to be difficult either, just trying to help solve a story problem (as my kids would call this). Please forgive me if I go into too much detail, I mean no disrespect, just trying to lay it all out. I think our disconnect might be in the 6 square inches surrounding a cube.
If you flatten it out, it would be 6 square inches, basically a rectangle that is 2in x 3in.
For my equation, I first solved for the dimensions of a cylinder / barrel required to hold 1 gallon of product.
Then, I calculated the surface area surrounding these dimensions.

To hold 1 gallon of product with an 8 in long barrel, you have a radius of 3.03 inches, a diameter of 6.06 inches, and a circumference of 19.04 inches.
If you unrolled the tube of the barrel, you would have a flat piece of metal that is 8 X 19.04 = 152.32 square inches of surface.
Dividing this by 6 square inches means you would need 25.6 cubes.
Now we have to account for the surface area of the ends - 2 circles with a radius of 3.03 inches.
Area of circle = Pi R Squared - and there's 2 of them. So each end has a surface area of 28.8 square inches. Take that times 2 for area of both ends = 57.6
Add the 57.6 to the 152.32 square inches of the tube and you get - 210 square inches.

210 square inches on the inside of a barrel capable of holding 1 gallon of product.
You divide this by 6 (Square inches of surface on each 1 in cube) and you get: 35 cubes.
These cubes would take up about 15% of the volume inside a gallon container. So, 1 gallon of product plus your 35 cubes would fit in a 1.5 gallon container with headroom.

Edit - I forgot to explain my reference to 200 cubes. There are a little over 200 1 in cubes in a gallon. I was pointing this out to show that 35 cubes wouldn't take up all the space, only about 15% of the space. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[Washashore]

Food for thought:

A 53 gallon oak barrel has approximately 3693 sq. in. of inside surface area. This equals 70 sq in per gallon---or 12 cubes per gallon. Generally 8 yrs for a very nice product.

A 5 gallon oak barrel has approximately 1413 sq. in. Of inside surface area. this equals 283 sq. in per gallon--or 47 cubes per gallon. Generally 6 months for a very nice product.

[Fastill]

When it comes to barrel aging, surface area and penitration must come into play. With 1" cubes, if you penitrate 1/2" you are into all of the cube, with a barrel, you can go deeper and still get fresh wood.
Now this only comes into play if you get more than 1/2" of penitration during aging. I really don't know but it is just a thought that crossed my mind.

[Alphadog007]

Ok, I get it now, guys, thanks. So then the next logical question is ...

If it takes 35 cubes to simulate a gallon oak barrel, that would displace the liquor to 1.5 gallons: So, in a one gallon jar, how many cubes surrounding the liquor in the jar, after adequate wood, to fill the jar up. Better, how many cubes are needed, when displacing the liquid to fill the gallon jar?

[Washashore]

Alpha, may I point out that there are too many variables and unknowns to precisely "replicate" the quality of an oak barrel. So as far as the exact surface area ratios, number of cubes, etc... you just have to experiment. The more cubes, the faster the product will "age", the less cubes, the longer. As I mentioned before, I'd lean towards less cubes but longer.

Look at it this way. An oak barrel has an inside surface that is exposed product and an outside surface that is exposed to the air. The reason why oak barrels produce such a superior product is that changing environmental conditions cause the staves of the barrel to shrink and swell with fluctuations of temperature and humidity. Because of this process, the product is adsorbed into the staves and expelled out of the staves, and extracts a lot of desirable flavor compounds by doing so. In fact, when barrels are left in a very humid environment, the "angels share" is alcohol because the air and staves are saturated with moisture, so the alcohol is what evaporates. Conversely, in a dry environment, the angels share is mostly water, because the dry air will adsorb the moisture from the staves/product. Many large scale distilleries rotate their barrels in their warehouses because the barrels in the top floors will "age" a lot faster (years even) than the barrels on the bottom floors (think of being in your attic in the summer as opposed to your basement).

Hope that helps.

[Alphadog007]

Thanks, Wash. I have been experimenting for awhile now but have never gone more than five cubes in a gallon jar. An earlier post said that cubes only add color. I don't think that's only true but my undilluted age can get absolutely black. I have some being oaked for a couple years now. I haven't tried them but fear some are over-oaked if some believe that possible.

Last point, my original post shared a chemical "trick" where an 'oaked' jar is kept outside, or wherever, as cold as possible, overnight then opened, aired, sealed, and shake-the-crap-out-of, and left the other half day at room temperature. Done for a month ages A LOT! The aging goes back to normal elapsed time after that first month. Is this an old-brewers tale I have embraced or is it, at least partly, plausible? Your above post with temp changes, swelling of the cubes, and 'offerings' to the angels makes it seem very possible. Am I nuts or what?

[Washashore]

No sir. You are not nuts. The temp changes, shaking, etc... Does accelerate "aging", however, I can almost guarantee you will not be able to achieve the same quality if just left alone for a long time.

I'll also challenge that oak cubes only do little more than add color (although those are my sentiments for chips). I think cubes are a likely a good way to go if you don't have a barrel. I think on my next aging, I'll make some cubes up and give it a go.

When not using a barrel though, I really like sticks. One, I have an endless supply of very old, tight grained oak in my yard; two, I have some logs that have been seasoned for 6 years and I'm able; third, I can select the heart wood and toast/char each stick to my liking.

The one problem I see with cubes is that all six sides are surfaced as a result of milling them into cubes. I think having sticks that are hand split really opens up the pores for better adsorption/extraction and allows for a better char. I have nothing to back that up, it's just an impression I've got.

[Washashore]

http://www.liquorpress.com/2011/03/25/t ... -vs-casks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[UnseatedPanic]

Just to chime in i just put white oak stick in the jars last night and ny this morning the color was already amber... my question is how long do tjeu need to stay in before i can drink it.. and taste the flavor?
sorry to ask a question in your tread but looks like a great place to ask bc its active

[bentstick]

As with all this hobby, it is up to you and your taste buds! Try tasting every so often untill you get what you want! But also remember to dilute a little as this is what you will do when you cut it down and bottle it. Cheers to ya and your jouney! Dont rush it takes time.

[Washashore]

Ditto to above. I'm a bit concerned that you achieved an amber color overnight though. You may have over-charred &/or put too many sticks in. I'd pull some out and stick with the "less for longer" school of thought.

[UnseatedPanic]

It was the first time I have done this so you are probably right about the char... I will pull the darker of the 2 sticks out...

Tasted it to day no oak just color...