Cheating Burbon- failure

[GasLamp]

Hey guys,
I tried what I thought was a simple recipe and had dismal results. Looking for reasons why it went so wrong. From what I've read I have an idea or two but wanted more input. I tried the following recipe that uses Diatase to convert the sugars not amalyase since the brew shop near me only carries 2 row not 6 row barely:
1. 4 gallons water+ 5lbs corn+1/2 lbs rice husks. Boiled/simmered 90 minutes in aluminum BOP.
2. Allowed to cool for about 45 mins, then transferred to insulated cooler that had been soaked with bleach water. I rinsed out the cooler with tap water before adding mash. Once mash reached 150F, I added 2.5 tsp of Diatase, let sit for 2 hours.
3. Added 2lbs of white sugar.
4. Added 3 tbs lemon juice concentrate to adjust pH to 5
5. Transferred into plastic 5 gallon jug fermenter (soaked in bleach water then rinsed out). This got messy and my hand did come in contact with the mash several times. Allowed to cool for 8 hrs to 75F, then pitched Safale US-05 yeast (no reyhdration, just tossed them in).

The mash started bubbling in 4 hours and continued well for 5 days (1bubble/1 sec). It was still bubbling after 9 days, but very slowly (1 bubble/min). I went to distill it today and immediately noticed a strong vinegar odor and taste. I tested the mash:
SG: 1.01
%SUGAR:3
%ABV:<5
I distilled it and got ~300mL of product that tasted terrible- bitter and rancid almost. Any thoughts on why the mash smelled like vinegar and why the yield was so low? Was this an infection and not a yeast inoculation that caused this?

[NcHooch]

Hate to hear that .
How long from pitching the yeast until you ran it? ...9 days?, or more?
It sounds like you got some sort of bacterial infection that started consuming the alcohol and converting to vinegar...

You should adjust the ph BEFORE you mash with the Diatase, not after.
I'm not too familiar with diastase, but you could use 2-row malt as long as you use a large enough percentage in the recipe.
Don't get discouraged, we all screw one up every now n then.

[RumBrewer]

I'm not too familiar with diastase, but you could use 2-row malt as long as you use a large enough percentage in the recipe.
.

+1
2 Row will work just fine, and it's pretty neutral. It won't add a bunch of off flavors or anything.

also sounds like you had a way to go on the gravity. What was the original gravity?
Seems to me like your mash was pretty inefficient... and expectedly so.
Keep your recipe, but add about.... 5-8 pounds of 2 row to your mash, and try to keep it around 155F. Your yeast pitch was fine.
for testing sake, you could try flaked corn from the brew shop for your next run. It's not a long term solution, but could help you nail down the problems. You won't boil that. Just add all the grain and water and keep at 155 or so.

[GasLamp]

Thanks for the advice. I had thought that the expected alcohol content (5-10%) would protect the mash from a bacterial infection. I've successfully run 2 apple brandy mashes that I let ferment for 2 weeks with no problems. But I did check and there definitely are bacteria that will metabolize alcohol into acetic acid. I guess somewhere along the route I wasn't careful enough and the mash got contaminated?

I think I'll try this again and make to distill no later than 7 days. I'm also happy to hear the vote of confidence that 2-row should work to convert the corn starch...but do I really need 5lbs? I think I read that at 20% of the grain bill it could do the conversion?

Finally- why the comment that the mash was expected to be inefficient?

[NcHooch]

By my calculations, you'd need a minimum of 4 pounds of 2- row malt that had a DP of 150 ...if your grain has less DP, you'll need more. That's why we use 6-row, it's DP is usually around 200

Here's what i'd do .

Skip the rice hulls
boil your 5 pounds of corn in the 4 gallons of water ... 90 mins should do it, careful, don't burn it.
This is the time to adjust PH to 5.2.
If it starts getting stiff, maybe toss some enzymes in there to thin it up .
turn off the heat once it's done and leave it in the BOP to cool ....stir it occasionally to keep the temp mixed.
Once it reaches 155 degrees, toss in the 4 pounds of barley and mix well. the temp will prolly drop to 150.
Now pour it into the cooler, and close the cover. It might be in the 147 or so range at this point, that's OK, we want to minimize the amount of unfermentable sugars, and max out the fermentable sugars. open every 15 minutes and stir. you should see the corn syrup forming on the top every time to open it . that's the good stuff.

I usually leave it in there overnight, but it you want to pour it into the fermenter after two hours, that's OK.
top up with another gallon or two of water , and once it reaches 90 degrees, you're good to pitch.

I have a feeling that distillers that claim they're using 80% corn, 15% barley and 5% rye are also using commercial enzymes in addition to the malt ....how else do they convert all that corn?

Anyway, hope that helps,

[GasLamp]

Hey, so I've taken the above suggestions, tried them and got a good batch that came out ~9%ABV, where I expected it. Then, I ran it again, as I'll describe below and the stripping run is behaving strangely. I am running an open column still with a thermometer. I know it isn't necessary to do so for a pot still but I like the extra data. The heads came off at 86C and I took 200mL, during which time the pot quickly jumped to 95C. The outflow rate slowed, but it has been holding steady there for ~300mL of collection. I'll detail my mash below. If anyone has suggestions on what could have gone wrong please comment. Otherwise I'll just try this again and see if works better. To point out, I experimented and used EC-1118 yeast to ferment as they have worked so well for my apple mashes (and I wanted the higher yield than an ale yeast).

Mash and procedure:
1. Boil/simmer 6.5lbs of cracked feed corn in 4 gallons of water for 90 minutes. It became a thick starchy mixture. Added 1/2 gallon to thin during last 30 minutes of simmer.
2. Add 2.5qts of ice to thin and cool BOP. Allow to cool to 70C (~155F). Add 5lbs of 2-row barely. The mash got very thick. The pH was adjusted to 5.5 with 3tbs of lemon concentrate (measured by pH paper).
3. The mash was transferred to a cooler and allowed to sit for 90 minutes with occasional stirring. Then it was transfered to the fermenting bucket to cool overnight. 5 tsp of diatase were added to ensure complete starch conversion.
4. The mash cooled overnight to ~90F, then EC-1118 were pitched. No additional yeast nutrient were added.

I allowed it to ferment 7 days, and it bubbled vigorously for the first 3 or 4. Today I measured the SG to be 1.03, and the %ABV of the final mash to be 4%.
Thoughts on what could have gone wrong? The resulting liquor so far seems to be astringent tasting.

[MitchyBourbon]

American 2 row from briess has a diastatic power of 140. That's enough enzymes to convert 4.5 lbs of grain.

[GasLamp]

That sounds about right. So I was little generous with the corn added...but the diatase I added should have finished the conversion. I'm wondering if the EC-1118 simply didn't finish and I just rushed the mash? I went with the champagne yeast to get a nice clean flavor and because they are highly alcohol tolerant.

Thoughts on letting the backset cool, adding sugar until .2kg/L sugar or 1.1SG, and pitching new yeast? I could re-do EC-1118 or use some S-05 ale yeast I have or get some bakers yeast, though they failed me in the past. Or is trying to use the spent stillage a bad idea?

[RumBrewer]

Here's what i'd do .
Skip the rice hulls

I don't use them, so I'm not directly disagreeing... but I have a mash tun that has proven effective for over 200 batches of beer. IF you are using a new mash tun and have a lot of adjuncts, a hand full of rice hulls COULD save the day!

[FantsGrove]

I've been looking into the all grain and trying to learn this process but I'm confused on this and have a couple questions. is the OG of 1.1 normal for an all grain mash? and if your using the Diatase extract (i guess its extract) why not just use that for the conversion in leu of 2 row grain?

[NcHooch]

I've been looking into the all grain and trying to learn this process but I'm confused on this and have a couple questions. is the OG of 1.1 normal for an all grain mash?

1.1 would be pretty much impossible to reach unless you boiled off a helluva lot water after your mash. the norm is more like 1.050-1.060 for all grain.

[Dnderhead]

"also using commercial enzymes in addition to the malt" ..If looking at a commercial recipe most likely they are using "distillers malt" this is produced for the enzymes more than starch.brewers malt is a compromise
2 row brewers malt is about 140DP
6 row brewers malt -----------180 DP
distiller malt-------------------300-400 dp
(the DP will very between manufacturer and batch)(these are topical ,not absolute)

is the OG of 1.1 normal for an all grain mash?
this is possible but not with ordinary mashing techniques.
and whould not be recommended attempting for starting out.

[rtalbigr]

I've been looking into the all grain and trying to learn this process but I'm confused on this and have a couple questions. is the OG of 1.1 normal for an all grain mash? and if your using the Diatase extract (i guess its extract) why not just use that for the conversion in leu of 2 row grain?

Typically, available diatase enzymes consist of only alpha amylase, so you are only going to get limited saccrification, and from that some unfermentable sugars as well. Using a barley malt gives you a number of other enzymes, so if you step mash you get a much more complete saccrification with more fermentable sugars as well as a much easier ferment because you are also breaking up the glucans and proteins.

I've been looking into the all grain and trying to learn this process but I'm confused on this and have a couple questions. is the OG of 1.1 normal for an all grain mash?

1.1 would be pretty much impossible to reach unless you boiled off a helluva lot water after your mash. the norm is more like 1.050-1.060 for all grain.

With a lot of work and time I can sometimes get an AG with an OG of 1.070-1.080. To get there you need good gelatinization and then a good step mash with everything just right, correct pH, proper chemicals for the enzymes, good temperature control.

Big R

[FantsGrove]

thanks for the responses makes alot more sense now...i love UJSSM and sweetfreed and all the other tried and trues but that AG hurdle makes me just wanna jump it...i mean if they can hover a space craft (sorry skycrane ) and lower a robot with cables onto mars i gotta be able to at least mash some grain right? haha but thanks for the info, boarding the AG train soon